WI Arthur of Brittany succeeds Richard I as King of England in 1199?

I've made a basic map of how France would be divided following Arthur becoming King of England, and Otto of Brunswick succeeding Eleanor as Duke of Aquitaine.
france1154eng.jpg

The thick lines represent borders between areas controlled by different people.

To the North and the East are the lands controlled by Phillip II, or by his vassals. To the Northwest are the the lands controlled by Arthur I of England. To the Southwest are the lands controlled by Otto of Brunswick (who in OTL became HRE). And to the Southeast is the County of Toulouse, controlled by Raymond VI, Count of Toulouse.

So, does this seem accurate? And what might be the political implications of a France thus divided?
 
Essentially, Philip has the Angevin territory split into two overmighty subjects instead of one.

A lot depends on Otto and Arthur personally. Arthur can look anyway you want, although "Typical Plantagent" seems accurate for a general picture.

Otto, I don't know enough to say, but he seems like a decent sort of guy, all things considered.
 
I was thinking of Theobald of Navarre inheriting Aquitaine, Champagne and Navarre via Marie of Champagne instead if Otto of Brunswick still becomes the Holy Roman Emperor, he could marry a sister or a daughter of Arthur to strengthen his claim to Aquitaine.
 
I was thinking of Theobald of Navarre inheriting Aquitaine, Champagne and Navarre via Marie of Champagne instead if Otto of Brunswick still becomes the Holy Roman Emperor, he could marry a sister or a daughter of Arthur to strengthen his claim to Aquitaine.
Well, another part of my timeline involves Holy Roman Emperor Henry VI and his son Frederick II working to make the position of Emperor inherited rather than elective, and for the HRE to become a more centralized power of Europe, so Otto of Brunswick wouldn't become Emperor...
 
And what do you mean by that? Please clarify.

Ambitious. Hot tempered. Intelligent. Not particularly pious or supportive of the Church. Vengeful.

Kasumigenx: Otto's claim is as strong as Arthur's - they're both Eleanor's grandsons.
 
Ambitious. Hot tempered. Intelligent. Not particularly pious or supportive of the Church. Vengeful.

Kasumigenx: Otto's claim is as strong as Arthur's - they're both Eleanor's grandsons.
I think Theobald of Navarre is a good alternative if Otto still waives Aquitaine for HRE, Theobald is also descended from Eleanor of Aquitaine I think Arthur could cede his claim to Aquitaine or just Gascony to him if Arthur is loyal to Philip but it will make the Champagne family more powerful, I think this requires for a daughter of Arthur to marry him if Arthur sires one..
 
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Elfwine said:
Ambitious. Hot tempered. Intelligent. Not particularly pious or supportive of the Church. Vengeful.
Okay, thanks.

I think Theobald of Navarre is a good alternative if Otto still waives Aquitaine for HRE, Theobald is also descended from Eleanor of Aquitaine I think Arthur could cede his claim to Aquitaine or just Gascony to him if Arthur is loyal to Philip but it will make the Champagne family more powerful, I think this requires for a daughter of Arthur to marry him if Arthur sires one..
Yes, but Otto isn't going to become the Holy Roman Empire in this timeline. Henry VI lives longer and manages to make the position hereditary.

Additionally, Theobald of Navarre is born after my POD (1197). Therefore his birth is butterflied away.

Thanks for the input, though.
 
Okay, thanks.


Yes, but Otto isn't going to become the Holy Roman Empire in this timeline. Henry VI lives longer and manages to make the position hereditary.

Additionally, Theobald of Navarre is born after my POD (1197). Therefore his birth is butterflied away.

Thanks for the input, though.
Actually, he is born Posthumously after his father's death, you can also butterfly his father's death and have his mother give birth to another person..
 
The eldest daughters of Eleanor and their children were non-factors in Aquitanian politics; there is nil chance of her disinheriting her sons and grandsons in favour of a prince from the house of Blois. Likewise, whoever inherited the Angevin domains wpuld do their damnest to prevent Aquitaine uniting with Champagne - likely counting on King Philip's support.

Gascony was the promised dowry of Eleanor of Anjou, so most likely that's where it'd go, unless Arthur married an infanta.

Aquitaine was the domain of Richard, who clearly designated Arthur as his heir. Eleanour would not try to circumvent that with Theobald or Otto; at most she might try to advance or protect John, depending on her relationship with him at the time. Arthur has the infinitely superior claim though.
 
The eldest daughters of Eleanor and their children were non-factors in Aquitanian politics; there is nil chance of her disinheriting her sons and grandsons in favour of a prince from the house of Blois. Likewise, whoever inherited the Angevin domains wpuld do their damnest to prevent Aquitaine uniting with Champagne - likely counting on King Philip's support.

Gascony was the promised dowry of Eleanor of Anjou, so most likely that's where it'd go, unless Arthur married an infanta.

Aquitaine was the domain of Richard, who clearly designated Arthur as his heir. Eleanour would not try to circumvent that with Theobald or Otto; at most she might try to advance or protect John, depending on her relationship with him at the time. Arthur has the infinitely superior claim though.
A Castillan ruled Gascony looks interesting actually..
That too. Or I could butterfly his father's marriage to his mother...

Yes, it is possible and I think Arthur marrying Blanche of Navarre looks interesting actually..
 
The eldest daughters of Eleanor and their children were non-factors in Aquitanian politics; there is nil chance of her disinheriting her sons and grandsons in favour of a prince from the house of Blois. Likewise, whoever inherited the Angevin domains wpuld do their damnest to prevent Aquitaine uniting with Champagne - likely counting on King Philip's support.

Gascony was the promised dowry of Eleanor of Anjou, so most likely that's where it'd go, unless Arthur married an infanta.

Aquitaine was the domain of Richard, who clearly designated Arthur as his heir. Eleanour would not try to circumvent that with Theobald or Otto; at most she might try to advance or protect John, depending on her relationship with him at the time. Arthur has the infinitely superior claim though.

Except that Eleanor did "cirumvent that" OTL, with Richard's acceptance. Richard only has Aquitaine in right of her, not in his own right.
 
Except that Eleanor did "cirumvent that" OTL, with Richard's acceptance. Richard only has Aquitaine in right of her, not in his own right.

If she needed Richard's acceptance, then she obviously wasn't circumventing his will. Theobald is a non-factor and completely apart from the Angevin family circle. Richard was duke of Aquitaine and count of Poitiers from his teens; his mother was still duchess alongside him, but he was already ruling and doing homage as ruler (and not just heir) of those fiefs. By the time of Eleanor's imprisonment, Richard was firmly positioned as duke, hence the relatively minimal agitation at her imprisonment.

Otto was given consideration as an heir only in the absence of male-line alternatives; with both the highly ambitious Arthur and John around to father more sons, nobody would care much about being "nice" to Otto and going for a three-way split. At most he might marry an heiress and become a powerful subject.

On the subject of Gascony, Castilian rule could have quite far-reaching consequences. The French and Angevin rulers would be far more occupied with Ibetian politics, the French especially eould be wanting to have a say in the Castillian succession, now that the monarchs are their vassals. Likewise the Spanish would be far more involved in French politics and not as engrossed in Iberian matters only. No doubt Berenguela's succession and marriage in Leon would encourage French to marry one of her younger sisters and break Gascony off from the united Castille-Leon.
 
If she needed Richard's acceptance, then she obviously wasn't circumventing his will. Theobald is a non-factor and completely apart from the Angevin family circle. Richard was duke of Aquitaine and count of Poitiers from his teens; his mother was still duchess alongside him, but he was already ruling and doing homage as ruler (and not just heir) of those fiefs. By the time of Eleanor's imprisonment, Richard was firmly positioned as duke, hence the relatively minimal agitation at her imprisonment.

Otto was given consideration as an heir only in the absence of male-line alternatives; with both the highly ambitious Arthur and John around to father more sons, nobody would care much about being "nice" to Otto and going for a three-way split. At most he might marry an heiress and become a powerful subject.

So when Eleanor, during the lifetime of Richard, with his acceptance (thus the quotes about "circumventing"), decides that the son and grandson she distrusts won't inherit and the grandson she is okay with will, what do the presence or absence of male-line alternatives have to do with the next duke?
 
If Richard lives a few years longer (for the sake of argument, let's say five more years—until 1204), what effects might that have on the timeline?
What might his goals be, and how might he accomplish them? How might the succession occur differently?
 
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