WI Arthur of Brittany succeeds Richard I as King of England in 1199?

Velkas · Feb 21, 2012

This is one of the PODs that I was thinking of using for my TL.

Basically, when Richard I of England dies, both John and Arthur (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_I,_Duke_of_Brittany) claim the English throne. John is crowned in Westminster with the support of Eleanor of Aquitaine. He then brings his army into France to defeat Arthur. However, in this TL, the combined forces of Arthur and Phillip II manage to defeat John. Arthur is then crowned king of England. I'm thinking of having John flee elsewhere, still claiming the throne, and having Eleanor imprisoned.

So, what would this change? Would it make sense for there to be some sort of agreement between Phillip and Arthur with Arthur giving up some of his French possessions in exchange for Phillip's help putting him on the throne? Since Arthur is only twelve, who might hold the real power during his early reign? Without Magna Carta, how might the course of English history be different?

Elfwine · Feb 21, 2012

Philip is going to play this for his own purposes, but he might well see Arthur as worth supporting.

No Magna Carta...England might become an absolute monarchy in this timeline. Or it might just be delayed - depends on if the king is ever in a position to be forced to sign such a thing.

Other than Normandy, which Philip wants, Philip doesn't seem to mind Arthur getting the Angevin inheritance.

Who wields the real power?

William Marshal, most likely.

SavoyTruffle · Feb 21, 2012

Hmm, perhaps Philip strikes a deal that allows Arthur to succeed in Brittany and Anjou (and pay homage for them, of course) while he gets Normandy?

Elfwine · Feb 21, 2012

SavoyTruffle said:
Hmm, perhaps Philip strikes a deal that allows Arthur to succeed in Brittany and Anjou (and pay homage for them, of course) while he gets Normandy?

That seems to be the historical plan.

If memory serves, Normandy isn't technically turned over to Philip - but Philip gets to keep any parts of it that either pledge loyalty to him or that he can take.

So he gets all the rewards of controlling the duchy and Arthur is stuck with the title and responsibilities.

Velkas · Feb 21, 2012

Elfwine said:
Who wields the real power?

William Marshal, most likely.

Would this be likely considering his loyalty to John? Or would he just change sides when John loses so he can "serve" the new king?

SavoyTruffle said:
Hmm, perhaps Philip strikes a deal that allows Arthur to succeed in Brittany and Anjou (and pay homage for them, of course) while he gets Normandy?

Sounds good. In return for helping Arthur take the throne, Phillip gets Normandy.
Everyone's happy. (Except John.)

Velkas · Feb 21, 2012

Elfwine said:
That seems to be the historical plan.

If memory serves, Normandy isn't technically turned over to Philip - but Philip gets to keep any parts of it that either pledge loyalty to him or that he can take.

So he gets all the rewards of controlling the duchy and Arthur is stuck with the title and responsibilities.

Hmm... interesting.

So Philip's basically the de facto ruler of Normandy, but Arthur retains the title of Duke of Normandy? What would these responsibilities be?

Elfwine · Feb 21, 2012

Velkas said:
Would this be likely considering his loyalty to John? Or would he just change sides when John loses so he can "serve" the new king?

William, as I understand it, was loyal to Richard's wishes. He was a devoted servant of the House of Anjou, not John in particular.

Sounds good. In return for helping Arthur take the throne, Phillip gets Normandy.
Everyone's happy. (Except John.)

Pretty much.

Hmm... interesting.

So Philip's basically the de facto ruler of Normandy, but Arthur retains the title of Duke of Normandy? What would these responsibilities be?

Here's the exact (after translation) wording of what was agreed when Arthur did liege homage to Philip in 1202 (for Brittany, Anjou, Maine, and Touraine):

"Concerning Normandy, it shall be ordered as follows; namely, that our lord the King of France shall retain to his own use as much as he shall please of all acquisitions which he shall make and God shall permit him to make in Normandy; and that he shall give such lands in Normandy as he pleases to those of his men who have lost their lands through serving him."

I'm not sure exactly what that leaves Arthur with, but it seems to me to read essentially as "Philip will have as much of Normandy as he can get, and he may dispose of it as he sees fit."

Arthur is not formally denied the title - presumably if he can occupy it on his own (somehow), he's free to control it, subject to the "...and that he shall give such lands in Normandy as he pleases..." by Philip.

So the responsibilities would just be whatever feudal service the dukes owe.

SavoyTruffle · Feb 21, 2012

Well, in order to make sure the whole Duke of Normandy thing isn't a mere formality, why not let Arthur keep the Channel Islands?

Timmy811 · Feb 21, 2012

Elfwine said:
That seems to be the historical plan.

If memory serves, Normandy isn't technically turned over to Philip - but Philip gets to keep any parts of it that either pledge loyalty to him or that he can take.

So he gets all the rewards of controlling the duchy and Arthur is stuck with the title and responsibilities.

And a what happens when a year later Arthur turns on him to take Normandy back?

Elfwine · Feb 21, 2012

Timmy811 said:
And a what happens when a year later Arthur turns on him to take Normandy back?

Arthur finds out the hard way that Philip is a lot cannier than he is.

The Professor · Feb 21, 2012

I pondered this selfsame thing some years back before I twigged that it could go just the same for Arthur as for John.
So if you really want a better Plantagenet England best neutralise the August King

Velkas · Feb 21, 2012

The Professor said:
I pondered this selfsame thing some years back before I twigged that it could go just the same for Arthur as for John.
So if you really want a better Plantagenet England best neutralise the August King

Well, I don't necessarily want a "better" Plantagenet England. I just want things to be different. But yeah, I'll keep that in mind...

Also, who might this King Arthur I marry, and to what effect?

Velkas · Feb 22, 2012

Velkas said:
Also, who might this King Arthur I marry, and to what effect?

Anyone?...

Edit:
Never mind... in OTL, he gets betrothed to Marie of France (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie_of_France,_Duchess_of_Brabant).
But if he marries her, what does that mean for Anglo-French relations?

Edit II:
Marie is born after my POD (1197). Who else might be a potential queen for King Arthur I?

kasumigenx · Feb 22, 2012

Velkas said:
Anyone?...

Edit:
Never mind... in OTL, he gets betrothed to Marie of France. But if he marries her, what does that mean for Anglo-French relations?

He gets married to Marie of France, the daughter of Agnes of Merania and Philippe Auguste, making him a son in law of Philippe Auguste.

Some Bloke · Feb 22, 2012

How would the nobility in England react to a King who spent even less time in their country than Richard ever did?
I suspect Arthur would have to make some concessions in order to keep his new throne.

Velkas · Feb 22, 2012

kasumigenx said:
He gets married to Marie of France, the daughter of Agnes of Merania and Philippe Auguste, making him a son in law of Philippe Auguste.

That would work, except Marie is born after my first POD (September 1197). Though I suppose Agnes and Phillip could have an alternate daughter at around the same time, whom Arthur marries.

Some Bloke said:
How would the nobility in England react to a King who spent even less time in their country than Richard ever did?
I suspect Arthur would have to make some concessions in order to keep his new throne.

Quite possibly. Any ideas of what sorts of concessions?

Also, what might John do to try to take back the throne?

Elfwine · Feb 22, 2012

Arthur might marry one of the daughters of the count of Flanders. Though that might clash with Philip's wishes.

And why are the English nobles going to demand concessions? I mean, if Arthur isn't in England, that means he isn't riding herd on them.

kasumigenx · Feb 22, 2012

Velkas said:
That would work, except Marie is born after my first POD (September 1197). Though I suppose Agnes and Phillip could have an alternate daughter at around the same time, whom Arthur marries.

Quite possibly. Any ideas of what sorts of concessions?

Also, what might John do to try to take back the throne?

Or basically Marie is butterflied and replaced by another person..

Bee · Feb 22, 2012

John had been Lord of Ireland in his father's reign and could find an exile there (or not: he was a stupid kid who pulled the Irish chiefs' long beards).

Gonzaga · Feb 22, 2012

Velkas said:
That would work, except Marie is born after my first POD (September 1197). Though I suppose Agnes and Phillip could have an alternate daughter at around the same time, whom Arthur marries.

Well, the best option here is to keep Marie's birth as IOTL. We don't know the exact month she was born. If it happened until early June then she was already in her mother's womb by the time of you POD, and most probably wouldn't be affected at all. So, I would say the best option is to keep her or make at least an alternate girl named Marie being born in 1198, just to be safe.