WI: Arius wins

Philip

Donor
Is this ASB?

It's not ASB[*], but the Arians will need several things to change. First, they need a better spokesperson, someone who can keep up with Athanasius. Second, they need a better defense of their theology. The Nicenes were able to characterise Arianism as Anomoeanism (or close enough). This lead to many 'undecideds', 'I-don't-see-the-differences' and semi-Arians to defect to the Nicene side.


[*]Not ASB as long as we assume that the statement 'It seems good to us and to the Holy Spirit....' does not literally apply here.
 
It's not ASB[*], but the Arians will need several things to change. First, they need a better spokesperson, someone who can keep up with Athanasius. Second, they need a better defense of their theology. The Nicenes were able to characterise Arianism as Anomoeanism (or close enough). This lead to many 'undecideds', 'I-don't-see-the-differences' and semi-Arians to defect to the Nicene side.


[*]Not ASB as long as we assume that the statement 'It seems good to us and to the Holy Spirit....' does not literally apply here.

Who would be a possible better spokesman, as it’s likely a better spokesman would lead to a better defense? Also, what would be the consequences of an Arian victory?
 

Philip

Donor
Who would be a possible better spokesman, as it’slikely a better spokesman would lead to a better defense

I'm not sure. Athanasius was a singular personality. If there was someone equal to the task at the time, he may be lost to history. It might be easier to just suppose that Athanasius started Arian.



Also, what would be the consequences of an Arian victory?

In part it will depend on when Arianism wins out. If it happens at Nicea, then it could spare Rome some turmoil over the next generation or two. I think that was Constantine's real goal.

It will also change the relationship between Rome and the Germanics. Some things that comes to mind, if you excuse the lepidopteracide, is that the Franks can't claim to be the Nicene protectors of Rome. The Visigoths may get along better with the subroman subjects in Iberia.
 

Philip

Donor
If Arianism/non-trinitarianism was standard in Christianity,
Arianism is not the same as non-Trinitariaism.

Most Arians accepted that Jesus was God. They disputed the Nicenes on how he was God. They denounced Anomoeanism and Modalism. They believed in the Holy Spirit as well, but differed with the Nicenes on his relationship to the Father.

then Islam might not appear, or if it still appeared might be considered a denomination of Christianity.

Arian Christianity would likely be viewed as polytheism by Muslims, even if we ignore all the butterflies between Arius and Mohammed.
 
Arianism is not the same as non-Trinitariaism.

Most Arians accepted that Jesus was God. They disputed the Nicenes on how he was God. They denounced Anomoeanism and Modalism. They believed in the Holy Spirit as well, but differed with the Nicenes on his relationship to the Father.

Arian Christianity would likely be viewed as polytheism by Muslims, even if we ignore all the butterflies between Arius and Mohammed.
Good point. A standardized Arianism would still be quite different from either non-trinitarianism or Islam.

Though, I wonder if the later religious inter-conflicts in the Byzantine Empire, such as the Monophysitism controversy, might be replaced by a conflict between Arianism and Anomeanism.
 

Philip

Donor
Though, I wonder if the later religious inter-conflicts in the Byzantine Empire, such as the Monophysitism controversy, might be replaced by a conflict between Arianism and Anomeanism.

That would be interesting to explore. I think there would be an alt-Monophysitism debate. The relationship between the Son and the fleshy Jesus would still need to be explained, and I don't know if the (semi-)Arians ever addressed this.

There is likely to be a dispute about the nature of salvation. For Athansius, it was summed by 'God became man so that man might become g/God'. Mortal human nature is given eternal life by being united to the eternal divine nature at the Incarnation. Arians can not explain it in quite the same way.

The personhood of the Spirit would still be debated as well as how he compares to the Son.

So it’s not the jehovah witness idea The Lord is second in command?

Jehovah's Witnesses are not Arians if that is what you mean. The label Arian gets thrown around readily without understanding what Arianism is.
 
The Visigoths may get along better with the subroman subjects in Iberia.

I don't really think the Visigoths will get along with Roman subjects.

Jehovah's Witnesses are not Arians if that is what you mean. The label Arian gets thrown around readily without understanding what Arianism is.

I heard the parallels of JW and Arianism. I don't get what Arianism is and I don't even think any branches of it exist today.
 
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! I MISSED THIS!

But in all seriousness, Arianism could very, very easily have one. In fact, for a while, it did win. Arian states existed in Italy, Burgundy, the Visigothic kingdom, in the north African Vandal kingdom, and sprinkled throughout the Germanic tribes. The main problems the Arian heresy had were the fact that the Arians technically still claimed the Nicene patriarchs, and the ERE. IMO, if the Arians were able to centralize their ecclesiastical infrastructure around a group of Arian head bishops, but based in far more Western Sees. Another thing would be to establish Arian seminaries under the patronage of Arian kings. That way, the Arian ideology slowly disseminates into the local people from the agent of the Church they interact with the most: their priests. And then, well, looking at history, if you ignore butterflies, Arabian Overpopulation is a ticking time bomb and eventually a charismatic leader is going to rise up and unify them, if not a Volkswanderung style mass migration of different Arab tribes out of Arabia. And if you can get an open minded enough Arab state in the Levant, you could even end up with an Arian Holy Land.

The main effect of this is that the post-Roman languages are going to be way more Germanic than Romance, which will have all kinds of butterflies.
 
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