WI: Argentine Vulcan Bombers during the Falklands Conflict

They'd look for the size of the radar return. A carrier has a bigger return than a destroyer.


I was thinking about the Patagonia, but yes, it can reach eastern Argentina. Approach routes would be somewhat limited, since they can't overfly Brazil or Uruguay, but Argentina didn't (and still doesn't) have enough radars

In OTL the Argentine dictatorship increased trade with the communists, so I don't think it's out of the question.
Israel would indeed be a more palatable provide for the Junta but they just don't have the kind of weapons required, since the IAF doesn't need to be prepared to attack a superior naval force.

In OTL, it worked throughout the war.


In OTL, the Argentine Air Force deployed a ground radar in the islands which it used to monitor the airspace... throughout the war.
I guess that explains why Argentina couldn't use their Super Etandards either :rolleyes:

Let me repeat myself -the task force had 30 warships + about the same number of RFA and Civilian Freighters - so about half the targets are going to be bigger blips - which is why the two attempts the Argentines did make to attack a carrier resulted in the Atlantic Conveyor getting hit and not a carrier

The Israelis could have eventually supplied jet aircraft (they had already supplied the 30 odd Daggers - ex Isreali Built Mirage V) and the sort of expertise that only another western nation could provide at the time.

Ground Radar on the Falklands might have been useful for coverage around the islands but unless the Task Force moves closer to the Radar position then bugger all use in any action away from the Island.

And as for the Lears 1 of the 2 jets was lost

The Super Etendard had one job in the conflict and was husbanded for it - and this resulted in 1 of the aircraft being stripped for parts.

Your suggesting that a far more complicated and larger aircraft that is going to be used for multiple tasks will be as easy to maintain?

Okay then.
 
There were two successful attacks from air launched Exocets during the war. Change the targets on both because of a better recon platform and you have both carriers damaged enough to be retired from combat for repairs.


Argentina deployed 8 Canberras for the war, lost two (as well as 50+ other fixed wing aircraft), didn't take a prestige hit.
Well, that's war. You win it by killing the enemy, not by asking nicely. And with what are they going to attack the Argentine mainland if both carriers are out for repairs and the Vulcan they can deploy from Ascension doesn't have the range?

Buy Soviet aircraft and weapons. A year is enough time to receive them and train the crews on them. I don't think the USSR would oppose to someone else asking them the tools to sink all those NATO ships.

Which Argentine Naval Assets? The military ones, which were in port? The merchant ones, which often operate under flags of convenience and are owned by offshore shell companies?


The British didn't have anything with the range to attack the Argentine mainland, unless they put the carriers between the Argentine coast and the islands, or Pinochet declared war on Argentina and that's unlikely.
The Lear Jets were used in recon and diversionary missions. The RN would pick them on radar, believe them to be Mirages and send Harriers to intercept. The Argentine radar operators would detect the Harriers heading for the Lear Jets, would warn them and the Lear Jets would return to base, drawing the Harriers away from actual strike packages.

The Canberras were flown through the war, there is no reason to believe it would be any different for the Vulcans.

Thanks for the details regarding the missions flown by the Lear Jets.
 
The sub Harpoon was first deployed by RN subs during the Falklands War

Harpoon is an anti ship missile.

It's not possible to attack other targets in argentina with.

If you want to attack the argentine mainland, the only options are polaris (not likely for reasons others have said), aircraft, a brave destroyer or frigate using gunnery, or ground troops.
 
They'd look for the size of the radar return. A carrier has a bigger return than a destroyer.
Atlantic Conveyor was 15,000 tonnes, Invincible was 22,000 and probably by that stage some attention was being paid to signature reduction (designing out corner reflectors and the like). Tidespring was 27,000 tonnes and Brambleleaf over 40,000 tonnes
Add in the use of chaff/ECM etc. (Sheffield had hers off when she was sunk in order to use the satellite phone - several contemporary RN sources have claimed that if that hadn't happened she should have been able to decoy it away) and I think the assumption that having a clear surface radar picture showing the position and relative size of the various targets enables you to make a successful attack is rather optimistic. More likely, IMHO, is that you hit more ships like Atlantic Conveyor instead of Sheffield - several of the RFA tankers were in the same region as the carriers, and were rather larger so would probably have been the most attractive radar targets.
 

WILDGEESE

Gone Fishin'
Let me repeat myself -the task force had 30 warships + about the same number of RFA and Civilian Freighters - so about half the targets are going to be bigger blips - which is why the two attempts the Argentines did make to attack a carrier resulted in the Atlantic Conveyor getting hit and not a carrier

The Israelis could have eventually supplied jet aircraft (they had already supplied the 30 odd Daggers - ex Isreali Built Mirage V) and the sort of expertise that only another western nation could provide at the time.

Ground Radar on the Falklands might have been useful for coverage around the islands but unless the Task Force moves closer to the Radar position then bugger all use in any action away from the Island.

And as for the Lears 1 of the 2 jets was lost

The Super Etendard had one job in the conflict and was husbanded for it - and this resulted in 1 of the aircraft being stripped for parts.

Your suggesting that a far more complicated and larger aircraft that is going to be used for multiple tasks will be as easy to maintain?

Okay then.

In his book "One Hundred Days" Adml Sandy Woodward explains that the Task Force went down South in 2 waves. 1st was the CBG (Carrier Battle Group) with it's escorts then a week or so behind the main Amphibious Force.

As the Ampib Forces where under defended through lack of available escorts and thus highly vulnerable to Submarine & Air attack, large amounts of "chaff" where carried by the Helicopters of the 1st wave.

When a Argie "spook" appeared on the Radar, normally a civilian 707, every available helicopter in the Task Force wether on ASW or VERTREP missions would be deployed dropping the stuff thus giving the impression that there was more ships in the fleet and that the Amphib Forces where already with the Task Force and thus not further behind and saving them from attack.

Not only that, but every helicopter involved drop more than was needed so to give the impression that every ship was a Aircraft Carrier.

The only way that the Argie's could get a fix on any off the Carriers was to fly through the "Radar pickets"

That is why the Argie's never hit any Carrier, although they may have come close.

Regards filers
 
Is there any British anti-ship missile the Vulcans could have been sold with to Argentina? Were the Vulcans Exocet or Harpoon capable? Is there a way to get Soviet missiles without Reagan going bananas? There's no point in having the Vulcans if they're just for dropping vertical bombs over CAP-defended targets. The Vulcan was designed as a stand-off platform, so let's have the Argies do that, how about some Soviet Kh-22 Kitchen anti-cvn missiles.

640px-Raduga_Kh-22.jpg


Really if there was any British aircraft the Argentines should have bought, it was the Harrier, ideally SHAR. If not Harrier, then Jaguar, as it could in a pinch operate from Stanley Field. Jaguar should be as easily acquired as the Super Etendards.

4124454_orig.jpg
 
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If Argentina bought, say, 10 Vulcans and tried to match them with a viable air to air refuelling capacity then even the dimmest intelligence analyst would conclude that they intended to dominate the SW. Atlantic and alarm bells would ring.

How long they could keep them in service is a difficult one as even the RAF was running out of spares and the parts makers had long ditched their manufacturing of these.

The off the shelf anti shipping missiles on the market were for high speed low altitude release not that far away from the target. A Vulcan would be dead meat in that scene so needs a proper stand off which, if the USSR or China would supply them, was beyond Argentina's capability to fit. Virtually a complete rebuild of the aeroplanes.

Being limited to convention free fall 1,000lb bombs let us look at the figures. 10 Vulcans carry 21 apiece so a squadron mission needs 210 such bombs. 10 missions needs 2,100 plus some for training. This in an Air Force that was using WW2 bombs. And they have to be the sort that fit the racks.

On the plus side, not much can match the agility of a Vulcan at over 50,000 feet.

The cheapest long term option would have been buying a squadron of Tu16 with stand off missiles from China. In fact the Argentine Navy would have been better off abandoning it's carrier and fast jets for long range maritime recce and strike land based aeroplanes. Cheaper in the end.
 
The off the shelf anti shipping missiles on the market were for high speed low altitude release not that far away from the target. A Vulcan would be dead meat in that scene .
I assume you're referring to Exocet or Harpoon, akin to the Super Etendard strikes against HMS Sheffield and the Atlantic Conveyor.

In this scenario I don't see how a Vulcan would be dead meat. The Vulcan is faster than the SHAR, and the FAA fighter has only heat seaking AAMs, requiring a rear aspect firing solution, even for the latest AIM-9 version supplied from NATO stockpiles. I suppose a big bird like the Vulcan would be easier to hit with cannon fire.

My thinking is using the Vulcan for anti-ship strike is a waste, when you've got the Super Etendards. Unless the Vulcans can carry multiple missiles that can be fired simultaneously.
 
The Vulcan is faster than the SHAR, and the FAA fighter has only heat seaking AAMs, requiring a rear aspect firing solution, even for the latest AIM-9 version supplied from NATO stockpiles.

Vulcan's top speed (unlikely to be reached while fully loaded) was 645mph while it cruised at 567mph. The Sea Harrier could reach 735mph.

AIM-9L is all aspect (although postwar studies showed that the majority of the kills of the Falklands could have been achieved with the earlier generation 9Gs) and were taken from UK stocks
 
Is there any British anti-ship missile the Vulcans could have been sold with to Argentina? Were the Vulcans Exocet or Harpoon capable? Is there a way to get Soviet missiles without Reagan going bananas? There's no point in having the Vulcans if they're just for dropping vertical bombs over CAP-defended targets. The Vulcan was designed as a stand-off platform, so let's have the Argies do that, how about some Soviet Kh-22 Kitchen anti-cvn missiles.

640px-Raduga_Kh-22.jpg


Really if there was any British aircraft the Argentines should have bought, it was the Harrier, ideally SHAR. If not Harrier, then Jaguar, as it could in a pinch operate from Stanley Field. Jaguar should be as easily acquired as the Super Etendards.

4124454_orig.jpg
Vulcan was designed for free fall nuclear weapons, not as a stand off platform, though it subsequently was used as one.

The answer is sea eagle to the missile question. It was used with a variety of other types (although not vulcan or nimrod), and production began in 1982. Otl it did not enter service until 1985, but in principle it could have been ready earlier.
 

WILDGEESE

Gone Fishin'
juanml82 They'd look for the size of the radar return. A carrier has a bigger return than a destroyer.

Not only that, in his book "One Hundred Days" Sandy Woodward explains how the 1st wave of the Task Force went 'down South' with tons of foil to confuse Argie radars carried on Recce aircraft.

When a probable Argie aircraft approached, every available helicopter would get airborne and drop foil like it was going out of fashion.

Although it didn't stop the Argie's knowing where the Task Force was, it stopped them attacking Hermes or Invincible as every plot on the radar looked like a carrier.
 
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