WI: Aquitanian Kingdom

Alright, so a bit of background. A little over a week ago, I started a thread inquiring as to a POD in which Eleanor of Aquitaine's brother managed to survive infancy. At the time, I was also writing a paper on the Occitan language for a Mediterranean Studies course that I am taking, which fueled my interest into delving deeper into the unique history and culture of the region of Occitania. Now, I'll be the first to admit that the Early Middle Ages is not my particular area of amateur expertise, so please, forgive my ignorance. However, I have, as of late, been toying with an idea for a TL, involving a surviving, independent Kingdom of Aquitaine.

So, my question is: what is the best POD after 840 (i.e. the death of Louis the Pious) for the formation of a permanent* Kingdom of Aquitaine?

*"Permanent" in the sense that a kingdom forms that lasts at least into the Late Middle Ages, if not the Early Modern Era.
 
Now, I'll be the first to admit that the Early Middle Ages is not my particular area of amateur expertise, so please, forgive my ignorance. However, I have, as of late, been toying with an idea for a TL, involving a surviving, independent Kingdom of Aquitaine.

So, my question is: what is the best POD after 840 (i.e. the death of Louis the Pious) for the formation of a permanent* Kingdom of Aquitaine?

The more simple would be that the sons of Lewis I recognize Peppin II possession of Aquitaine.
OTL Aquitaine was given to Charles, but Pépin managed to keep it for 20 years.

So, make Charles in a less good position or make Pépin able to make an alliance Lewis of Germany instead of Lothar, and maybe it could be done. It's quite hard to do, as Lothar is more good ally to counter Charles' pretention prior to Strasbourg.

Another good POD would be Pépin sucessfulling chasing Charles of Aquitaine. But he would have less legitimacy at the eyes of other carolingian kingdoms for some times.

I can search for details if you want explore this situation.
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Wait, there's more simple. Avoid the birth of Charles, and Pépin II would probably suceed his father, following the Ordino Imperii of 817. But it's not a post-840 POD.
 
The more simple would be that the sons of Lewis I recognize Peppin II possession of Aquitaine.
OTL Aquitaine was given to Charles, but Pépin managed to keep it for 20 years.

So, make Charles in a less good position or make Pépin able to make an alliance Lewis of Germany instead of Lothar, and maybe it could be done. It's quite hard to do, as Lothar is more good ally to counter Charles' pretention prior to Strasbourg.

Another good POD would be Pépin sucessfulling chasing Charles of Aquitaine. But he would have less legitimacy at the eyes of other carolingian kingdoms for some times.

I can search for details if you want explore this situation.

That POD is actually quite intriguing. However, it's just a bit too early for what I'm considering.

What about Ranulf II of Aquitaine living longer? Say, the POD is that he evades the attempt of Count Odo of Paris to poison him and manages to reign another fifteen or so years as King of Aquitaine, long enough to stably pass the Crown to his legitimate son? Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't his death leave the Aquitainians with no choice but to accept Odo as king, ending the independence of Aquitaine?
 
You could have Guilhem Aigret of Aquitaine or his son married to Dolça II of Provence who both died as a child, it might unite Aquitaine and Provence for a later POD.

Another is for the Capetians to rule Aquitaine instead of Northern France.
 
Maybe a good hard kick at the power of the French king in general so that Aquitaine could survive some periods in which it is temporarily forced to recognize the French king as an overlord without being absorbed? Perhaps something more like the HRE developing in France with strong regional powers?
 
What about Ranulf II of Aquitaine living longer? Say, the POD is that he evades the attempt of Count Odo of Paris to poison him and manages to reign another fifteen or so years as King of Aquitaine, long enough to stably pass the Crown to his legitimate son? Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't his death leave the Aquitainians with no choice but to accept Odo as king, ending the independence of Aquitaine?

The problem is that Eudes, at the contrary of some of his predecessors, have the real control of both the core of the kingdom and of the royal treasure. Not talking about his supportive base.
Furthermore, he really wanted to take Aquitaine, for strengthening his power but also to crush the carolingian remnants they were there and that could dispute his legitimacy.

More important, Eudes had the military power. At these times, when you were king, you had to renounce every other dignity you have : count, general, etc. But Eudes kept this power by giving it to his brother Robert.

So the first factor to remember : Eudes was particularly powerful.

Second, before the death of Ramnol he giving him many domains. Ramnol couldn't take himself without angering the aquitain nobles, but Eudes CAN do that as a king. So Ramnol accepted and renounced to his title, in exchange of the...quite new and curious one : "Duke of the bigger part of Aquitaine".

I'm not saying that Ramnol was particularly happy of this agreement, but Eudes excited his allies within Aquitaine to overthrow the duke and even if Ramnol escaped poison, i doubt he could have escaped and defeated the Adalelmids. Not without renouncing to any royal pretension.

If you want to use the Ramnulfid for an Aquitain kingdom, you'll probably have to make Eudes killed during the siege of Paris, and to ensure that the carolingians were too busy with the wars against Germany and their own dissenssion to busy about Ramnol.

For Ramnol, you have to make him LESS ambitious. If he thing his current desmenes are enough, and if he renounce to them (maybe using a brother or an ally to rule them indirectly) he could put himself in the tradition of carolingian kings.

You could have Guilhem Aigret of Aquitaine or his son married to Dolça II of Provence who both died as a child, it might unite Aquitaine and Provence for a later POD.

Another is for the Capetians to rule Aquitaine instead of Northern France.

I don't get the point : a change of dynasty isn't going to change anything to the political, economical and feudal situation of Aquitaine and France.

And for the union...It's not working that way, not like in a CK game : the nobles that formed the base of feudal power wanted to keep their leader, and not being part of a more important duchy/kingdom etc. because it could mean that the new liege would be too powerful for them, making their autonomy weakening.
Even in the Late Middle Ages, you have kings and great nobles just giving up too further lands they inherited or owned because they couldn't hope rule them against the will of local nobles.
 
I bump this, because i had some idea. Guilhèm III have probably some odds to form a Kingdom of Aquitaine, opposed to the Robertians and while having a Carolingian king (and with a ramnulfid replacing him or his descendants eventually).

The kingship of Aquitaine was somewhat reestablished OTL (mainly because Hugues I wanted to use Lothaire as a king of Aquitaine to conquer the land) and while the "Paix de Dieu" movement could be a spine in his foot it was more a problem for the Franks.

Let's assume that Lothaire IV manage to escape the grasp of the Duke of Francia, we could have a reversed situation. Guilhèm III would fight for Lothaire as a King of Aquitaine and Francia. But as the conquest of northern lands was somewhat impossible, Lothaire would be in the facts King of Aquitaine only. Eventually, Hugues or his son Hugues Capet would be elected as king of France, and you'll have two kingdoms.
 
Let's assume that Lothaire IV manage to escape the grasp of the Duke of Francia, we could have a reversed situation. Guilhèm III would fight for Lothaire as a King of Aquitaine and Francia. But as the conquest of northern lands was somewhat impossible, Lothaire would be in the facts King of Aquitaine only. Eventually, Hugues or his son Hugues Capet would be elected as king of France, and you'll have two kingdoms.
Would he still marry Emma of Italy? Is there a way to make Arnulf his heir without massive problems?
 
Would he still marry Emma of Italy? Is there a way to make Arnulf his heir without massive problems?

You'll have no more, no less problems that the election of Hugues Capet i think. Probably the ramnulfids would have to deal with their most powerful vassals and they'll likely to let 1/2 or 1/3 of their kingdom getting more and more autonomy, like OTL Kingdom of France.

But if Lothaire acknowledge the ramnuflids as his sucessors (critically if a Duke of Aquitaine is marrying a female relative to the king), it would be relativly easy.
 
I bump this, because i had some idea. Guilhèm III have probably some odds to form a Kingdom of Aquitaine, opposed to the Robertians and while having a Carolingian king (and with a ramnulfid replacing him or his descendants eventually).

The kingship of Aquitaine was somewhat reestablished OTL (mainly because Hugues I wanted to use Lothaire as a king of Aquitaine to conquer the land) and while the "Paix de Dieu" movement could be a spine in his foot it was more a problem for the Franks.

Let's assume that Lothaire IV manage to escape the grasp of the Duke of Francia, we could have a reversed situation. Guilhèm III would fight for Lothaire as a King of Aquitaine and Francia. But as the conquest of northern lands was somewhat impossible, Lothaire would be in the facts King of Aquitaine only. Eventually, Hugues or his son Hugues Capet would be elected as king of France, and you'll have two kingdoms.

That is absolutely brilliant! Especially considering it essentially establishes both a Capetian France and a Ramnulfid Aquitaine as essential contemporary royal dynasties. Cheers, LSCatalina :)
 
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