WI-----Anne of Brittany's marriage

[Geoffrey1016]

Historically, Anne of Brittany was forced to marry each successive King of France according to the marriage treaty, which sounded horrible compared to what happened to her fellow female monarch married to a King of France-----Mary Queen of Scots (who was able to return to Scotland and remarry). What would happen if she was allowed to return to Brittany to rule as a free Duchess(as Brittany was de facto independent throughout its existence), like how Mary Queen of Scots was?
While Louis XII(who had pursued Anne's hand when she was little and when he was still the Duke of Orleans) would still seek her hand, would Anne marry Louis this time? Or would she marry someone else instead, thus preserving Brittany's independence from the French crown?

 

[Brita]

Welcome @Geoffrey1016.
Anne's marriage contract to Charles VIII specified that she had to remarry his successor if he died heirless so the only way I can think of so she can marry elsewhere is if Louis XII doesn't manage to get an annulment for his first marriage before one year has passed (as Anne had demanded). Then maybe she can marry a Rohan but Louis will surely try something.

 

[Geoffrey1016]

Welcome @Geoffrey1016.
Anne's marriage contract to Charles VIII specified that she had to remarry his successor if he died heirless so the only way I can think of so she can marry elsewhere is that if Louis XII doesn't manage to get an annulment for his first marriage before one year has passed (as Anne had demanded). Then maybe she can marry a Rohan but Louis will surely try something.

True. Charles VIII did that to Anne, which was absolutely shameful in the entire early modern history of attempts for composite monarchies.
I often wonder why did Charles VIII force Anne to marry his successor. Neither Henri II of France nor Charles de Guise tried to insert any clause in the matrimonial agreement require Mary Queen of Scots to marry Francis' successor if Francis died, but Charles VIII forced Anne to marry his heir. If Charles VIII feared Anne's earlier betrothal with a Habsburg, Charles de Guise feared the potential for the Earl of Arran to force Mary to marry his son. If Charles VIII wanted to consolidate his French realm, Henri II and Charles de Guise wanted a Franco-British Empire from the North Sea to the Pyrenees. What caused the lives of the two young female rulers who happened to marry the King of France to diverge so dramatically, when the vested interests were very similar?
If Anne married a Breton lord, then Louis XII would surely try to prevent this, citing the treaty that forbid her from marrying without his approval and the contract that forced her to marry him, while Breton lords would boil down like how Scots reacted to Mary's marriage to Lord Darnley, as domestic marriages for a monarch usually aroused partisan sentiments during the period of widespread consolidation of composite states.
But the main questions would be would Louis XII marry Anne if he could afford not to do so(such as if the clause was invalidated by the Estates of Brittany or the Parlement of Paris), and would Anne marry Louis XII if she could choose not to do so.

 

[Brita]

True. Charles VIII did that to Anne, which was absolutely shameful in the entire early modern history of attempts for composite monarchies.
I often wonder why did Charles VIII force Anne to marry his successor. Neither Henri II of France nor Charles de Guise tried to insert any clause in the matrimonial agreement require Mary Queen of Scots to marry Francis' successor if Francis died, but Charles VIII forced Anne to marry his heir. If Charles VIII feared Anne's earlier betrothal with a Habsburg, Charles de Guise feared the potential for the Earl of Arran to force Mary to marry his son. If Charles VIII wanted to consolidate his French realm, Henri II and Charles de Guise wanted a Franco-British Empire from the North Sea to the Pyrenees. What caused the lives of the two young female rulers who happened to marry the King of France to diverge so dramatically, when the vested interests were very similar?
If Anne married a Breton lord, then Louis XII would surely try to prevent this, citing the treaty that forbid her from marrying without his approval and the contract that forced her to marry him, while Breton lords would boil down like how Scots reacted to Mary's marriage to Lord Darnley, as domestic marriages for a monarch usually aroused partisan sentiments during the period of widespread consolidation of composite states.
But the main questions would be would Louis XII marry Anne if he could afford not to do so(such as if the clause was invalidated by the Estates of Brittany or the Parlement of Paris), and would Anne marry Louis XII if she could choose not to do so.

Concerning the reason why Anne was forced into marrying Louis, I think it was because 1) Louis XII was pursuing his predecessors' policy of annexing the great fiefs and Brittany was so weakened by that time he would have been foolish not to do it and 2) having Anne ally with HRE would have been too dangerous for France. In Mary Queen of Scots' case (I'm not a specialist of this period so correct me if I'm wrong) a union between the Kingdoms of France and Scotland was near impossible and I don't think the French kings were interested in ruling both countries.

Concerning the questions you ask about Louis and Anne. I think Louis would still have tried to marry Anne for the reasons I mentioned. The Estates of Brittany could have tried to invalidate the clause but the Parlement of Paris wouldn't. Anne, on the contrary, was determined to have Brittany remain separate from France so she would have tried to find another husband, probably a Rohan. In 1499, Jean II had four living sons: Jean, Georges, Jacques and Claude (who entered the Church). Jean and Georges died before their father in 1505 and 1502 respectively and Jacques seems to have been infertile. If Jean's death isn't butterflied, he and Anne can still have a few children to secure the Breton succession.

 

[Prince of Permsia]

In Mary Queen of Scots' case (I'm not a specialist of this period so correct me if I'm wrong) a union between the Kingdoms of France and Scotland was near impossible and I don't think the French kings were interested in ruling both countries.

They were more interested in pressing her claim to England. They probably would have invaded if Henri II hadn't gotten himself killed in a jousting accident.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

Would Louis XII die before Charles VIII (during his invasion of Italy perhaps) then Charles' heir would be Francis of Angoulême, who was 17 years younger than Anne. In such case its unlikely that Anne would need to marry him.

 

[Brita]

They were more interested in pressing her claim to England. They probably would have invaded if Henri II hadn't gotten himself killed in a jousting accident.

True, I didn't think about that.

Would Louis XII die before Charles VIII (during his invasion of Italy perhaps) then Charles' heir would be Francis of Angoulême, who was 17 years younger than Anne. In such case its unlikely that Anne would need to marry him.

Indeed. It would be interesting to see whether Francis would try to marry a daughter of Anne and her alt-second husband or focus on other interests, like the Italian Wars for instance.

 

[Geoffrey1016]

Indeed. It would be interesting to see whether Francis would try to marry a daughter of Anne and her alt-second husband or focus on other interests, like the Italian Wars for instance.

Likely so.
A marriage between the sister of the new Duke of Brittany(once Anne died) and the new King of France would be likely to prevent multiple hostile states from choking off the Channel from one side while the new King was fighting against Habsburgs over Milan and rest of Italian territories. Habsburgs and England could choke off the Channel from the other side, so attempts to buy off loyalty from neighbours in such a way would be useful.

 

[kasumigenx]

Concerning the reason why Anne was forced into marrying Louis, I think it was because 1) Louis XII was pursuing his predecessors' policy of annexing the great fiefs and Brittany was so weakened by that time he would have been foolish not to do it and 2) having Anne ally with HRE would have been too dangerous for France. In Mary Queen of Scots' case (I'm not a specialist of this period so correct me if I'm wrong) a union between the Kingdoms of France and Scotland was near impossible and I don't think the French kings were interested in ruling both countries.

Concerning the questions you ask about Louis and Anne. I think Louis would still have tried to marry Anne for the reasons I mentioned. The Estates of Brittany could have tried to invalidate the clause but the Parlement of Paris wouldn't. Anne, on the contrary, was determined to have Brittany remain separate from France so she would have tried to find another husband, probably a Rohan. In 1499, Jean II had four living sons: Jean, Georges, Jacques and Claude (who entered the Church). Jean and Georges died before their father in 1505 and 1502 respectively and Jacques seems to have been infertile. If Jean's death isn't butterflied, he and Anne can still have a few children to secure the Breton succession.

Another man, Anne could marry is the Prince of Orange, who is her heir.

 

[Historymaster]

To emancipate Anna you should have her father winning at Saint-Aubin-du-Cormier.

 

[Geoffrey1016]

To emancipate Anna you should have her father winning at Saint-Aubin-du-Cormier.

In such a case Anne would be quickly betrothed to either Maximilian or his son Philip the Fair, as Imperial support would be vital in a Breton-Orleans victory. Louis, then Duke of Orleans, and Francis II of Brittany were allies in war(and Louis was captured in the battle), but Louis was then married to Jeanne of France, likely deliberately to get him childless. Charles VIII would be married to Margaret of Austria.
Now Habsburgs would hold France to its neck. If it was Maximilian who married Anne, the thing might not be that bad as it would result in a Habsburg sept with no claim to Burgundian territories, but if Philip the Fair married Anne, then the situation would be dangerous, as France would be held by a single Habsburg on its neck, and if Charles VIII was forced to cede Franche-Comte to the Habsburgs in 1492 as OTL, on three sides. Luckily, this would butterfly away the marriage between Joanna of Castile and Philip the Fair if the latter married Anne of Brittany, so Habsburgs would not surround France on four sides. With a Habsburg both inside and surrounding his kingdom and also in his bed, Charles VIII would be miserable as a king!

 

[Historymaster]

With a victory, Louis may be able to get an annullement

 

[Geoffrey1016]

With a victory, Louis may be able to get an annullement

And the Pope would likely say no to such an annulment. The Pope would likely consider that the marriage between Louis and Jeanne of France was consummated according to the witnesses(as most evidences at the time of the case were on Jeanne's side), and, unlike in OTL, there was no agreement between Francis II of Brittany and Louis that involved a marital alliance.
As Louis lost his annulment case, Francis II of Brittany would then likely marry his daughter to Philip the Fair, under the proviso that Brittany and Burgundian inheritance would be passed to different children. Maximilian I would definitely like such an idea.

 

[Historymaster]

On that basis, thought, is more likely Maximillian marries her himself, that way theinheritance line stay separated; If Maximillian is able to do his duty (with Bona Sforza he did not) at least one surviving child is likely; if it is a son, we have the Absburg-Britannia line if it is a daughter, it depends on who she marries.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

@Brita can correct me, but wasn't the clause about Anne marrying Charles' successor only in the event that she and Charles had no (male) issue. Ergo, if Charles-Orland had survived she and Louis wouldn't have married?

@Geoffrey1016: to compare Anne and Mary of Scots is pretty pointless. The two were very different scenarios. Brittany was "seen" as part of France (although much like the Lorrainers or the Burgundians, they tended to dispute this point), Scotland never was. IIRC Anne's independence of action as duchess was severely curtailed by Charles (to the point of pettiness, he refused to allow any Breton appointments without his say so, Anne was not allowed to receive Breton representatives alone but with Charles etc), whereas Louis only seemed to interfere in Breton affairs when it was necessary. He permitted Anne to run the place by herself, rarely meddled in her appointments (and only when it directly contradicted France's interests) and seldom "forced" her to change her policies (one example of it is Claude's betrothal to Karl V or her willing Brittany to Renée de France when Claude married François d'Angoulême). If we're going with a Mary, Queen of Scots' analogy, Charles is a combo of Darnley-Bothwell rather than her Valois husband.

From my thread on Anne marrying Philipp of Burgundy

Philip of Burgundy was too young for marrying in 1488 or 1490 and Anne needed an older husband not a boy younger than her. Maybe if Francis II of Burgundy lived until 1492 (Philip would be able to marry at the end of that July) a wedding between Philip and Anne would be possible. Plus with such POD Charles VIII would be already married to Margaret of Austria (12 years old in that January) and her dowry and unable to marry Anne for Brittany.

Only with Philip married to Anne and Margaret married to Charles both Juan and Juana are without husband as Maximilian at the OTL time of Juana and Philip’s wedding will be already married to Bianca Maria (or maybe a Jaggiellon princess)

 

[Geoffrey1016]

@Brita can correct me, but wasn't the clause about Anne marrying Charles' successor only in the event that she and Charles had no (male) issue. Ergo, if Charles-Orland had survived she and Louis wouldn't have married?

Yeah, but in this case she would need to stay in the French royal domains, as Charles-Orland would succeed the throne and historically french queens who were mothers of the king would not return to their home countries.

@Geoffrey1016: to compare Anne and Mary of Scots is pretty pointless. The two were very different scenarios. Brittany was "seen" as part of France (although much like the Lorrainers or the Burgundians, they tended to dispute this point), Scotland never was. IIRC Anne's independence of action as duchess was severely curtailed by Charles (to the point of pettiness, he refused to allow any Breton appointments without his say so, Anne was not allowed to receive Breton representatives alone but with Charles etc), whereas Louis only seemed to interfere in Breton affairs when it was necessary. He permitted Anne to run the place by herself, rarely meddled in her appointments (and only when it directly contradicted France's interests) and seldom "forced" her to change her policies (one example of it is Claude's betrothal to Karl V or her willing Brittany to Renée de France when Claude married François d'Angoulême). If we're going with a Mary, Queen of Scots' analogy, Charles is a combo of Darnley-Bothwell rather than her Valois husband.

From my thread on Anne marrying Philipp of Burgundy

Since the analogy was raised in Retha Warnicke's biography of Mary Queen of Scots, in which she said that Scots at the time worried that Scotland would become the next Brittany at the time when the Scottish Parliament approved the appointment of commissioners to give Francois the Dauphin crown matrimonial of Scotland, which aroused my idea to compare these two tragic young female rulers who happened to marry a King of France during their teens.
Anne was only one year older than Philip the Fair, and Charles VIII was 7 years older than Anne. Catherine was one year older than Arthur, Prince of Wales, and Francois II was 2 years younger than Mary Queen of Scots, so a royal marriage that involved a slightly younger husband would not be that unusual. If Anne was betrothed to Philip in 1488 and the marriage was concluded in 1494, the same year Maximilian married Bianca Maria of Milan, then Isabella and Ferdinand would try to find another royal ally for a match with Joanna of Castile.
If Anne concluded her marriage with Maximilian in 1494, then Philip could marry Joanna as OTL, which would, however, arouse Charles VIII and Anne de Beaujeu's nerve again, as France would now be surrounded by Habsburgs on four sides if Juan, Prince of Asturias and Girona, died as OTL. The French court might declare Flanders and Artois(both of which were largely French fiefs, although Flanders was the composite of an Imperial fief and a French fief) forfeit, but would likely receive a sounding defeat.
I agree with you that Charles VIII behaved more like Lord Darnley or Earl of Bothwell than Francois II, though, since Francois II was too sickly and stuttered to say "Non" to anything Mary and her mother would might work out about Scotland.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Anne was only one year older than Philip the Fair, and Charles VIII was 7 years older than Anne. Catherine was one year older than Arthur, Prince of Wales, and Francois II was 2 years younger than Mary Queen of Scots, so a royal marriage between an older wife and a younger husband wasn't that unusual

It's not about the age gap, it's about the fact that in 1488, it's canonically impossible for Phil to marry Anne (as he's still under the age of consent). Not to mention that the Burgundian Estates would likely throw a fit (they've just come off a war with France that cost them Artois, Auxerre, Charolais and Franche-Comte, they don't need another one). The only way Phil can marry Anne is if Charles VIII is already married and there's no other obliging French husband to take her (Charles d'Angoulême and Louise of Savoy married in 1488, Louis d'Orléans and Jeanne de Valois were married in 1476 already). There was a reason she married Max and not Phil or Friedrich III who were likewise single.

Until 1492, there's no way the Phil-Anne marriage happens. And if Francis lives until 1492, there's every likelihood he remarries a third time (his death OTL was a freak accident IIRC) to have a son by a third marriage.

 

[Geoffrey1016]

It's not about the age gap, it's about the fact that in 1488, it's canonically impossible for Phil to marry Anne (as he's still under the age of consent). Not to mention that the Burgundian Estates would likely throw a fit (they've just come off a war with France that cost them Artois, Auxerre, Charolais and Franche-Comte, they don't need another one). The only way Phil can marry Anne is if Charles VIII is already married and there's no other obliging French husband to take her (Charles d'Angoulême and Louise of Savoy married in 1488, Louis d'Orléans and Jeanne de Valois were married in 1476 already). There was a reason she married Max and not Phil or Friedrich III who were likewise single.

Until 1492, there's no way the Phil-Anne marriage happens. And if Francis lives until 1492, there's every likelihood he remarries a third time (his death OTL was a freak accident IIRC) to have a son by a third marriage.

I know. So the marriage would likely be finalized at around 1494 if Philip was going to marry Anne, which was after the retrocession of Artois and Franche-Comte, and it's likely that a delayed death of Francis II of Brittany would prevent Anne from being heir to Brittany(but who knows?).
I agree with you that it would be more plausible for Anne to marry Maximilian, and it did almost happen in 1491 in OTL. While it would produce another Habsburg branch in Brittany, I wonder whether Anne de Beaujeu and Charles VIII would react differently between a Philip-Anne marriage or a Maximilian-Anne marriage. Philip-Anne marriage would hold France from its neck, while Maximilian-Anne marriage would surround France on three sides with two different Habsburgs. One thing is sure would be that Charles VIII would be married to Margaret of Austria, this would be a prerequisite for every timeline that would prevent Anne from marrying Charles VIII. With one Habsburg in Brittany, one in Flanders, Artois and Franche-Comte(who was married to the soon-to-be heiress to the Castilian and Aragonese throne), and another in his bed, it would be Charles VIII's nightmare.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

I know. So the marriage would likely be finalized at around 1494 if Philip was going to marry Anne, which was after the retrocession of Artois and Franche-Comte.
I agree with you that it would be more plausible for Anne to marry Maximilian, and it did almost happen in 1491 in OTL. While it would produce another Habsburg branch in Brittany, I wonder whether Anne de Beaujeu and Charles VIII would react differently between a Philip-Anne marriage or a Maximilian-Anne marriage. Philip-Anne marriage would hold France from its neck, while Maximilian-Anne marriage would surround France on three sides with two different Habsburgs. One thing is sure would be that Charles VIII would be married to Margaret of Austria, this would be a prerequisite for every timeline that would prevent Anne from marrying Charles VIII.

A Phil-Anne marriage would probably be regarded as potentially worse than a Max-Anne marriage. In 1490-1491 Max was distracted in Hungary, couldn't really help Anne but it was thought that Max's position was enough to dissuade the French from acting. Phil doesn't have any such constraints. He's tied down by the Burgundian Estates, yes, but its a much shorter distance to march troops from Flanders to Brittany than to mobilize them from Austria (when you have none to spare). If Anne of Beaujeu viewed Max as a "bad" option, Philipp of Burgundy was bad x10.
True, the French could always meddle in Burgundy, but whether it will be as effective as in the previous reign (Louis XI and Charles the Bold) is open to question.

 

[Brita]

@Brita can correct me, but wasn't the clause about Anne marrying Charles' successor only in the event that she and Charles had no (male) issue. Ergo, if Charles-Orland had survived she and Louis wouldn't have married?

Yeah, but in this case she would need to stay in the French royal domains, as Charles-Orland would succeed the throne and historically french queens who were mothers of the king would not return to their home countries.

This is true, if Charles-Orland had survived Anne wouldn't have had to remarry Louis. I'm not sure what Anne would do in this case. Marry again while being regent for her son? After all, as Duchess of Brittany in her own right, she can claim she has to rule her duchy as well as hold the regency.

Another man, Anne could marry is the Prince of Orange, who is her heir.

The problem with Orange IMHO is that he woudn't be "Breton enough" for Anne. True, he was her first cousin but he wasn't in Brittany whereas Rohan was at hand.

And there's the problem of the Montfort-Penthièvre feud. Strict Salic Law had been applied in Brittany since 1365 and the Treaty of Guérande signed by both sides but when the Penthièvres abducted Duke John V in 1420, they were declared traitors and the validity of the treaty was later questioned because of this.
Jean II de Rohan had married John VI's second daughter Marie so their children had a claim to the duchy as well. A marriage between their eldest son and Anne makes more sense IMO.