The POD here is that Lady Anne Neville falls pregnant in 1471, with Edward of Westminster’s child, and following the Lancastrian defeat, dies giving birth to a stillborn child. Now what? Who does Richard, Duke of Gloucester (later Richard III) marry here? Cecily Bonville seems likely IMO, but a Scottish Princess is also possible. Would George still rebel if he’s inheriting the bulk of the Neville lands?
WI: Anne Neville dies in 1471?
- Thread starter RedKing
- Start date
Wasn't George's reason for rebelling being after the crown rather than the rest of the Neville lands?
Yeah, George is gonna George. He has a chip on his shoulder and an inability to think about the repercussions to his actions. Getting more land ain't gonna stop that.
It was, but I have heard that he was bitter at Richard marrying Anne, and getting the better Neville lands, so I imagine he mightn’t revolt when he did in OTL if he’s getting all the lands.
Not true, George had received by miles the best deal from his wedding taking the best and richer lands (and the safest as all came from the Warwick or Salisbury inheritance). In OTL George had taken the bulk of the Neville‘s lands
Richard would marry Margaret of Scotland here and would still take the male line lands of the Neville (as Warwick here would be attainted like his brother and George would receive the control of the Warwick inheritance imprisoning the Countess and likely the reversion of the Salisbury inheritance)
I stand corrected then.
Richard marrying Margaret of Scotland is possible, and it could still help him in establishing a base in the north. Then again he might be an actual Duke of Gloucester here.
A lot of Richard’s lands where located in the North and AIUI it he spent most of his time there, as though he were a Duke of York. I saw someone on this forum refer to him as such.
Late Mediaeval English Ducal titles, and to some extent Comital ("Earl-al") ones, were generally named after the primary possession making up that title not whatever other land the title holder may have.
OTL the Dukes of Lancaster had more land in the Yorkshire ridings than the Dukes of York did.
I see. So most of Richard’s lands where in Gloucester at the time he was created Duke of Gloucester then?
The Gloucester title is likely to include Gloucester lands at this point in time, yes. Not necessarily "most of" by size but the most important.
Of course this is roughly when land per se started to give way to pension when it came to titles. Accelerated by the Tudor decimation of the nobility in order to eliminate rivals.
Even this isn't always the case by this the 15th century. Edward III's creation of a duke of Clarence referred to the Clare lands his son was getting -- including Castle Clare. These passed to Philippa and to the Mortimers. Henry IV's creation of the title for Thomas included none of this -- it was just a random title creation meant to call back to Edward's glory days. John of Lancaster had the reverse -- the lands of Richmond, but denied the title.
Would Richard feel more or less comfortable in his tenure in his lands such a scenario compared to OTL? Here he holds his northern powerbase by grant of the king, which can always be taken away, but he's not worrying about a dodgy legal settlement that excluded the true heirs (George sometime Duke of Bedford, then the Latimer Nevilles).
And would his hold over the Neville estates and ability to attract former Warwick supporters as retainers be negatively affected by the lack of the familial connection Anne provided IOTL?
An alternate wife and healthy kids for Richard would obviously have significant effects if he still ascends to kingship.
He would likely feel more secure as his unlikely who the King will take away from him lands who would be settled over him and his heirs also in his wedding contract to the most beloved sister of the King of Scotland
He would still be a cousin of Warwick from his Neville’s mother and was partially raised in Warwick’s household at Middleham so he would still have a pretty strong connection to Warwick of his own.
If Richard is less dependent from the Royal favor for keeping his lands for himself and his line, he would be likely less inclined to do his coup. And butterflies can very well delay the death of Edward IV (meaning who Edward V would be older or possibly Elizabeth of York married abroad) or butterfly the death of Marybof Burgundy (keeping the engagement between the Dauphin and Elizabeth of York)