WI and PC:Israel formed by Ottomans?

This is a what if and plausibility check. The What if is of course, what happens if the Ottoman Empire creates a State of Israel sometime during the 1700's or 1800's. What would such a state be like in the modern age, and what other possible consequences would it have on history.

Also, the plausibility check part, was there ever time when the Ottomans considered tryng this? Were some of the rulers in favor of this but no one else was, or was there a general consensus on such an idea amongst the ruling elite either way?
 
This is a what if and plausibility check. The What if is of course, what happens if the Ottoman Empire creates a State of Israel sometime during the 1700's or 1800's. What would such a state be like in the modern age, and what other possible consequences would it have on history.

Also, the plausibility check part, was there ever time when the Ottomans considered tryng this? Were some of the rulers in favor of this but no one else was, or was there a general consensus on such an idea amongst the ruling elite either way?

I don't see any reason, why Ottomans do that. I think that Ottomans not give up very easy this own areas.
 

birdboy2000

Banned
This is a what if and plausibility check. The What if is of course, what happens if the Ottoman Empire creates a State of Israel sometime during the 1700's or 1800's. What would such a state be like in the modern age, and what other possible consequences would it have on history.

Also, the plausibility check part, was there ever time when the Ottomans considered tryng this? Were some of the rulers in favor of this but no one else was, or was there a general consensus on such an idea amongst the ruling elite either way?

Read into the career of Joseph Nasi, a Portuguese-descended Jew who attempted (with Ottoman support) to resettle Tiberias, in Israel, with Jews in the 16th century.
 
The Ottomans opening up Israel to Jewish settlement is easy to do; they tried it a few times in OTL, after all. Getting them to create a fully independent Israeli state, on the other hand, is a lot harder to manage; like most empires, the Ottomans don't like giving up territory.
 
Well it really depends on how 'independent' you're meaning this state to be.

If you mean one that's completely indepenendt of the Ottomans politically, but allied to them having good relations, well that's very unlikely, though if you have the right PoD wherein they basically pull a Formosa and create an Independent state in order to prevent someone else from taking the region for themselves it might be possible.


Now, what's more posible would be something equivalent to the British Dominions at most or as a Nation within a Nation autonomous area.
 
As mentioned before, Joseph Nasi tried to resettle Jews in the Galilee. He didn't ask for autonomy or anything. The Ottomans could benefit economically from that. Perhaps if the Ottomans see that, and then let the Jews settle elsewhere in the Holy Land, there could have been a Jewish majority in modern day Israel by the times of Napoleon. I really don't think the Ottomans would be willing to give them independance, only a bit of autonomy at most. Though as the number of Jews coming from Europe who bring the ideas of enlightment with them grows, the Jews may want independance. They can revolt in the 19th century like the Greeks or the Serbs did against the Ottomans. It is possible.
 
Herzl did tried to convince the ottomans to sell palestine to the jews in 1896 but failed to convince the sultan.
 
Herzl did tried to convince the ottomans to sell palestine to the jews in 1896 but failed to convince the sultan.

Interesting. What was it that made the Sultan say no?

EDIT: Israel doesn't neccessarily have to be fully independent. Some sort of Dominion type thing could probably work.
 
Interesting. What was it that made the Sultan say no?
Herzl met with Sultan Abdulhamid II twice. He asked for a charter over Palestine to allow Jews to enter the land and freely live there, subject to Ottoman rule, ofcourse. All this in return for the Jews eliminating the OE's huge national deficit.
Abdulhamid II was pan-Islamist, so it really didn't appeal to him, to say the least. He said something along the lines of "You can divide my domain when my domain dies, but don't you severe my Empire's body while it is still alive"
 
Dominions go against everything the Ottoman Empire represents. Local rulers in some areas were used to maintain control though, so the best you could hope for would be the Sultan establishing a feudal dependent state in the Galilee with a Jewish noble leading it. However, it would not be any more autonomous than any millet, and deference would still have to be paid to the prevailing order in the Empire.
 
Federalism would not have benefitted the Ottoman Empire. One of the chief challenges for the state was creating a centralized tax system, and federalism wouldn't really help that.
 
It was back in January or February when someone started a TL where Joseph Nasi successfully got a large number of Sephardic Jews from Italy to be re-settled in Tiberias. The idea was to have an independent Israel with a strong homegrown population by the 19th century, but it only got as far as the reign of the Lebanese Druze emir Fakhr al-Din II. The ATL Jews of Tiberias switched sides between the Lebanese prince and the Ottoman Sultan to to preserve their autonomous enclave.
 
It was back in January or February when someone started a TL where Joseph Nasi successfully got a large number of Sephardic Jews from Italy to be re-settled in Tiberias. The idea was to have an independent Israel with a strong homegrown population by the 19th century, but it only got as far as the reign of the Lebanese Druze emir Fakhr al-Din II. The ATL Jews of Tiberias switched sides between the Lebanese prince and the Ottoman Sultan to to preserve their autonomous enclave.

I can definitely imagine the Ottomans attracting Jewish settlers, particularly from western Europe, maybe as a modernization attempt. And if they gain a certain number in a given region, they could get some autonomy. But an own state with Jerusalem as capital is ASB.
 

birdboy2000

Banned
I can definitely imagine the Ottomans attracting Jewish settlers, particularly from western Europe, maybe as a modernization attempt. And if they gain a certain number in a given region, they could get some autonomy. But an own state with Jerusalem as capital is ASB.

Well, it wouldn't be a willing granting of independence. But if the Jews become a demographic majority (or even a plurality with superior firepower) they could revolt and win like the other nationalities when the empire declines, no?
 

Valdemar II

Banned
The problem is that the Jews moving to Palestinian in this period was urban, in fact that was the general problem for a Jewish majority area, there was simply very few Jews who was farmers. What we need is a Jewish group which lay weight on self-subsistent. The problem with Jews forbidden from owning land in Europe, it's hard seeing it coming from there, while in the Muslim world they was also urban for other reasons*.

*tax reason mostly, if you're a subsistence farmer, you couldn't really afford to pay the jizya poll tax (especially because it became greater and greater as non-Muslims became fewer), which resulted in only artisans and mechants could afford to stay non-Muslim.
 
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