WI: An heir for Geldern?

The duchy of Geldern/Guelders/Gelderland OTL passed to the Habsburgs through the Burgundian inheritance, since a duke of Guelders had mortgaged his lands to Philippe le Bon or Charles le Téméraire (can't remember which). When the duke of Guelders died, his son claimed the duchy back from the Burgundians. HOwever, he died, leaving two underage children, twins, Karl II and Philippine. Philippine later married the duke of Lorraine while Karl a Welf princess. Karl later died without legitimate kids, despite the fact that he had warred against the emperor concerning his duchy. However, he left at least four bastards (three of which were boys). So, here's my question, what would happen if Karl II were to have a legitimate son by his wife, Elisabeth of Brunswick? Or even a daughter? How would either situation affect the future of the duchy (obviously the girl would be an heiress to marry for anyone going against the Imperial camp (although I think the duke of Jülich-Kleve-Berg had the next best claim to Guelders in lieu of an heir))? And how legal was the imperial/Burgundian holding of the duchy of Guelders (a case of might makes right? Or simply an expired lease that no-one bothered renewing?).
 
Was just thinking about this now, but OTL Willem de Zwijger married, as his first wife, Anna van Egmond, who was from a collateral line of the rulers of Guelders (Johann II of Egmond had two sons, Arnold founded the line that petered out with Karl II (legitimately), while Arnold's younger brother, Wilhelm, succeeded as Count of Egmont, and ended in Anna van Egmond (legitimately)). But Anna is described in many sources on William the Silent/Taciturn as being a Netherlandish heiress of renown. And the marriage gave the Nassaus their holdings in the Low Countries that led to the Nassaus gaining the Dutch stadtholderate. Also, one of the people beheaded with the Dutch Revolt by Felipe II was Lamoral, Comte d'Egmont (hero of the play that Beethoven wrote the overture and incidental music to). If there is a line of the same family ruling in Guelders, might this not affect, not only Anna's marriage, but perhaps stay Felipe II's hand - thereby keeping the Nassaus out of the United Provinces?

PS: I realize with a POD in the 1500s/1510s it is unlikely that the Dutch revolt of OTL would occur or even follow the same course if it did, but I think that having a surviving duke of Guelders who asserts his right to his inheritance that's within the Burgundian Netherlands' borders, might keep the emperor/duke of Burgundy on his toes enough. OTL it doesn't seem like there was a major family (the Nassaus were German counts for the most part) that had a cadet line in the Netherlands. Ergo, Guelders and Jülich-Kleve-Berg seem to be the main contenders (by dint of their geography and their OTL relationship with the emperor) for taking issue with the duke of Burgundy.
 
The duchy of Geldern/Guelders/Gelderland OTL passed to the Habsburgs through the Burgundian inheritance, since a duke of Guelders had mortgaged his lands to Philippe le Bon or Charles le Téméraire (can't remember which). When the duke of Guelders died, his son claimed the duchy back from the Burgundians. HOwever, he died, leaving two underage children, twins, Karl II and Philippine. Philippine later married the duke of Lorraine while Karl a Welf princess. Karl later died without legitimate kids, despite the fact that he had warred against the emperor concerning his duchy. However, he left at least four bastards (three of which were boys). So, here's my question, what would happen if Karl II were to have a legitimate son by his wife, Elisabeth of Brunswick? Or even a daughter? How would either situation affect the future of the duchy (obviously the girl would be an heiress to marry for anyone going against the Imperial camp (although I think the duke of Jülich-Kleve-Berg had the next best claim to Guelders in lieu of an heir))? And how legal was the imperial/Burgundian holding of the duchy of Guelders (a case of might makes right? Or simply an expired lease that no-one bothered renewing?).
The Burgundians (whether Habsburg or not) would try to obtain Gelre through any means to complete their hold on the Low Countries, and in OTL they didn't shun military conquest. Their legal claim was more a pretext for invasion than a valid legal claim, but since they were so powerful, that didn't matter (might makes right indeed). Utrecht was basically overrun turned into a secular realm after the bishop mistakenly chose the wrong side, without any genuine legal reason. I'm not sure an heir by itself would've been enough to stop the Burgundians. Indeed, in OTL the ducal crown did pass to Wilhelm V of Gulik-Kleef-Berg and he didn't have the means of standing up to the Burgundians just by himself.

That said, it's an interesting period with a lot of possibilities, since practically the entire region was involved at some point, from East Frisia to France. More than an heir the dukes of Gelre needed reliable allies. Maybe if that heir marries a scion of a powerful realm (France might be too much to hope, and of course such an alliance would be opposed by many, even in the Netherlands)), there could be a genuine difference.
 
@JonasResende: the Nassaus had been present in the Low Countrues ever since count Engelbrecht of Nassau-Dillenburg married (in 1403) Lady Johanna van Polanen, heiress of the Lordship (Barony) of Breda and various other possessions in the duchy of Brabant and the counties of Holland, Zeeland and Hainaut and the Prince-Bishopric of Utrecht. Personally he had been serving the Valois-Burgundy dukes of Brabant even before that (might have helped to arrange a marriage with this wealthy heiress of Breda in Brabant), he and his descendants would continue their service after Brabant was inherited by the main branch of Valois-Burgundy. It was the inheritance of the Nassau-Breda branch of the family, who by this point also had inherited the Principality of Orange from the house of Chalons-Arlay*, which brought Willem the Silent from Dillenburg to the Low Countries.

(*= René of Chalons, paternally belonged to the Nassau-Breda branch)
 
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@JonasResende: the Nassaus had been present in the Low Countrues ever since count Engelbrecht of Nassau-Dillenburg married (in 1403) Lady Johanna van Polanen, heiress of the Lordship (Barony) of Breda and various other possessions in the duchy of Brabant and the counties of Holland, Zeeland and Hainaut and the Prince-Bishopric of Utrecht. Personally he had been serving the Valois-Burgundy dukes of Brabant even before that (might have helped to arrange a marriage with this wealthy heiress of Breda in Brabant), he and his descendants would continue their service after Brabant was inherited by the main branch of Valois-Burgundy. It was the inheritance of the Nassau-Breda branch of the family, who by this point also had inherited the Principality of Orange from the house of Chalons-Arlay*, which brought Willem the Silent from Dillenburg to the Low Countries.

(*= René of Chalons, paternally belonged to the Nassau-Breda branch)

My bad. This is what happens when I write when I'm away from my sources. I also found out that Anna was heiress to the younger of the younger branch of Egmond, that had split in the 15th century between two sons. The senior younger (that sounds weird) line went extinct in the 17th century.

The Burgundians (whether Habsburg or not) would try to obtain Gelre through any means to complete their hold on the Low Countries, and in OTL they didn't shun military conquest. Their legal claim was more a pretext for invasion than a valid legal claim, but since they were so powerful, that didn't matter (might makes right indeed). Utrecht was basically overrun turned into a secular realm after the bishop mistakenly chose the wrong side, without any genuine legal reason. I'm not sure an heir by itself would've been enough to stop the Burgundians. Indeed, in OTL the ducal crown did pass to Wilhelm V of Gulik-Kleef-Berg and he didn't have the means of standing up to the Burgundians just by himself.

That said, it's an interesting period with a lot of possibilities, since practically the entire region was involved at some point, from East Frisia to France. More than an heir the dukes of Gelre needed reliable allies. Maybe if that heir marries a scion of a powerful realm (France might be too much to hope, and of course such an alliance would be opposed by many, even in the Netherlands)), there could be a genuine difference.

France might be too much of a hope, but the dukes of Gelre had a history, (Karl II's mother was a Bourbon, and her mother-in-law was a princess of Cleves (who in turn was half Valois), plus his sister's mother to one of France's premier peers (the duke of Guise)) of tending towards pro-French, if only as a way of combatting Burgundian influence (whether Valois or Habsburg). So perhaps, instead of a marriage to a local duc de Nevers, the king of France decides that Marguerite de Bourbon should marry the heir to Gelre. That being said, an interesting, and possibly lucrative match for the heir (obviously depending on when he would be born) would be to Anna/Amalie of Cleves. The duke of Cleves was already in the anti-Imperial camp, married to a French princess and his sister, Sibylle, is married to the elector of Saxony who's going against the Emperor on religious grounds too. What do you think?
 
France might be too much of a hope, but the dukes of Gelre had a history, (Karl II's mother was a Bourbon, and her mother-in-law was a princess of Cleves (who in turn was half Valois), plus his sister's mother to one of France's premier peers (the duke of Guise)) of tending towards pro-French, if only as a way of combatting Burgundian influence (whether Valois or Habsburg). So perhaps, instead of a marriage to a local duc de Nevers, the king of France decides that Marguerite de Bourbon should marry the heir to Gelre. That being said, an interesting, and possibly lucrative match for the heir (obviously depending on when he would be born) would be to Anna/Amalie of Cleves. The duke of Cleves was already in the anti-Imperial camp, married to a French princess and his sister, Sibylle, is married to the elector of Saxony who's going against the Emperor on religious grounds too. What do you think?
Not too keen on the French connection myself, although it would markedly open up Gelre wars. The real problem with France was, I think, that the focus was on Italy at the time, 'though I don't know enough about the Italians Wars to be sure. (Pretty much nothing beyond Lapalisse dying at Pavia, to be honest)
 
Not too keen on the French connection myself, although it would markedly open up Gelre wars. The real problem with France was, I think, that the focus was on Italy at the time, 'though I don't know enough about the Italians Wars to be sure. (Pretty much nothing beyond Lapalisse dying at Pavia, to be honest)

So a Cleves match if possible?
 
Out of curiosity, do you guys think Gelre would've stayed Catholic or gone Protestant given the times? I mean obviously if Karl II's son, let's call him Karl III (since he had two basted sons both called Carel), carries on his dad's legacy of butting heads with the emperor, then converting to Protestantism would be a short step in the direction of flipping the bird to Charles V. However, he might just as soon as stay on the Catholic side of things - after all, Wilhelm V of Julich-Kleve-Berg sorta steered a middle of the road course, his daughters were all raised Lutherans in spite of having a Catholic mom, although later Wilhelm seems to have had some misgivings about it, since when one of them refused to attend their mother's Catholic funeral he threatened her with bodily harm. But he was also kinda mad, so that's how these things go.

And how might him converting to Protestantism be seen at the time of the Dutch revolt? Obviously, as pointed out in my other thread, in the 1560s the Dutch estates approached the duke of Cleves in the hope of attracting him to their side. What if Karl III were to agree where Wilhelm V/Maximilian II didn't want to get their hands dirty?
 
I'm curious, who could make a more effective alliance partner for the duke of Guelders? He married Elisabeth of Brunswick-Lüneburg OTL, but I can't seem to find that the marriage brought any decent alliances with it - the Welfs were at the time hardly one of the more powerful German noble families (noble yes, powerful not so much. As SpaceOddity says in his Tudor TL, the Welfs' history is one of gathering territories together and then losing them). Plus, clearly Elisabeth is the problem with regards to fertility. Any suggestions?
 
I'm curious, who could make a more effective alliance partner for the duke of Guelders? He married Elisabeth of Brunswick-Lüneburg OTL, but I can't seem to find that the marriage brought any decent alliances with it - the Welfs were at the time hardly one of the more powerful German noble families (noble yes, powerful not so much. As SpaceOddity says in his Tudor TL, the Welfs' history is one of gathering territories together and then losing them). Plus, clearly Elisabeth is the problem with regards to fertility. Any suggestions?
Gulik/Jülich is the obvious alternative, of course, but I assume you already considered that :)

I think there's a lack of decent candidates in the period. The Wittelsbachs were past their local prime, and beyond the Palatinate/Bavaria you have to get to (Habsburg! so...) Bohemia before you have any country capable of standing up to just the Dutch possessions of the Habsburgs (i.e. it still wouldn't work if Valois-Burgundy hadn't died out).

Even the French have their issues, since well, the whole Netherlands are in the way - they'd be as likely to leave Gelre to the Valois-Burgundy in return for Artois or pieces of Flanders, if a war ends in Gelre being occupied and yet the Valois/Habsburg/Netherlands losing to France.

England might be a distant option, though I have my doubts about their being sufficiently stable to risk challenging the Habsburgs or Valois-Burgundy in the Netherlands (again).
 
Gulik/Jülich is the obvious alternative, of course, but I assume you already considered that :)

I think there's a lack of decent candidates in the period. The Wittelsbachs were past their local prime, and beyond the Palatinate/Bavaria you have to get to (Habsburg! so...) Bohemia before you have any country capable of standing up to just the Dutch possessions of the Habsburgs (i.e. it still wouldn't work if Valois-Burgundy hadn't died out).

Even the French have their issues, since well, the whole Netherlands are in the way - they'd be as likely to leave Gelre to the Valois-Burgundy in return for Artois or pieces of Flanders, if a war ends in Gelre being occupied and yet the Valois/Habsburg/Netherlands losing to France.

England might be a distant option, though I have my doubts about their being sufficiently stable to risk challenging the Habsburgs or Valois-Burgundy in the Netherlands (again).

After combing through most of the "bigger" houses I came to this conclusion. I like the idea of an English/Scottish match, except there are no legitimate (Stewart) princesses of age and I can't see Henry VII being willing to marry one of his daughters off into Germany.

I'm curious as to why you say that it still wouldn't work if the Valois-Burgundy hadn't died out. In theory in such a scenario, Charles the Bold having a son or Mary marrying elsewhere, I could see that Gelre might use them to shore up their rule. I mean, if the duke of Gelre is married to the emperor's sister/daughter then Charles wouldn't invade because it would put the royal crown he so earnestly desires in jeopardy (at least that's what I would think).
 
After combing through most of the "bigger" houses I came to this conclusion. I like the idea of an English/Scottish match, except there are no legitimate (Stewart) princesses of age and I can't see Henry VII being willing to marry one of his daughters off into Germany.

I'm curious as to why you say that it still wouldn't work if the Valois-Burgundy hadn't died out. In theory in such a scenario, Charles the Bold having a son or Mary marrying elsewhere, I could see that Gelre might use them to shore up their rule. I mean, if the duke of Gelre is married to the emperor's sister/daughter then Charles wouldn't invade because it would put the royal crown he so earnestly desires in jeopardy (at least that's what I would think).
Well, my main reason is that Dutch rulers had been happily ignoring the Emperor's wishes since forever. Bohemia-Austria is a long way away, long enough that a Valois-Burgundy army could overrun Gelre before they ever get a chance to intervene.
 
Well, my main reason is that Dutch rulers had been happily ignoring the Emperor's wishes since forever. Bohemia-Austria is a long way away, long enough that a Valois-Burgundy army could overrun Gelre before they ever get a chance to intervene.

Gotcha. But that still leaves us with the question of a replacement for Elisabeth. Although her sister seemed to have had no such problem with her husband. So it could've just been a bad match I guess.
 
I'm curious, there were several transalpine dynastic marriages that occurred over the centuries - ones with Savoy especially, but also between the Wittelsbachs and Milan and various other Italian states. Might Karl be able to swing an Italian wife (who might just happen to be decently related to the French (so most likely someone from Savoy or Milan)) as a way of securing an alliance with that power? And also, I know we mentioned upthread that a French match wouldn't go over well in the Low Countries, but if the French were to decide to get involved in the Low Countries (ie to support the dukes of Guelders, Lorraine and Cleves (all three traditional French allies at the time) as a way of preventing the complete takeover by the HRE, or because the king of France regards some of those lands as rightfully his), how might things play out in Europe's cockpit?
 
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