WI an English Bible in the 700s?

Thande

Donor
Whilst perusing the Infallible Wikipedia, I learned that the Venerable Bede was working on a translation of the Gospels into Northumbrian Englisc at the time of his death. Isolated parts of the Bible were often translated into Old English at the time, and (contrary to how it was in European nations) these were not always simply meant as guides for priests whose Latin was poor.

So, what if Bede decided to focus on writing a full Old English translation of the entire Bible instead of his Ecclesiastical History? What would be the effect of having a native-language translation be a tradition in later years, if we assume no butterflies?

(This would also freeze the Northumbrian-Englisc dialect of Bede's time in history if it proliferated, leading to this perhaps becoming an accepted archaic mode by the time of the Norman Conquest, like King James English is today).

I imagine the Normans might well try to suppress it on linguistic supremacist grounds even before the Catholic Church turned against native-language translations...
 
Whilst perusing the Infallible Wikipedia, I learned that the Venerable Bede was working on a translation of the Gospels into Northumbrian Englisc at the time of his death. Isolated parts of the Bible were often translated into Old English at the time, and (contrary to how it was in European nations) these were not always simply meant as guides for priests whose Latin was poor.

So, what if Bede decided to focus on writing a full Old English translation of the entire Bible instead of his Ecclesiastical History? What would be the effect of having a native-language translation be a tradition in later years, if we assume no butterflies?

(This would also freeze the Northumbrian-Englisc dialect of Bede's time in history if it proliferated, leading to this perhaps becoming an accepted archaic mode by the time of the Norman Conquest, like King James English is today).

I imagine the Normans might well try to suppress it on linguistic supremacist grounds even before the Catholic Church turned against native-language translations...

Interesting - some Danish scholars assume that Adam of Bremen wrote his work to prove the supremacy of the Bremen-Hamburg see over other sees in northern Europe particular the English/Anglo-Saxon ones that were engaged in missiorany work in northern Europe. One of these irritations of the Bremen-Hamburg see was the use of Danish king Sven Forkbeard of Anglo-Saxon clergy in Denmark.

So - a Northumbrian bible might easily spread to other parts of northern Europe making Bremen-Hamburg more intent on having the pope recognize it as THE missionary see of northern Europe.
But it may also make the work of the Anglo-Saxon clergy easier with their native tongue bible, easily understood by the north Europeans.

It could be a developing factor in cross North Sea communications - more than OTL ones. It could also serve to further the course of christianity in Denmark pre-Harold Bluetooth because of trade relations with Anglo-Saxon England.
 
I suspect that Bede might have translations of each book of the Bible made seperately (as in one book per book, if you get what I mean), in the guise of interpretations thereof...

As to having the whole thing bound up in one book... would he do that?

Would the other church bigwigs in Britain even let him? :confused:
 
I wonder if Aldred would still have gone ahead with his own translation project, he had parts like the Psalms and some other parts translated, or whether he would have considered Bede's version sufficient.

Or perhaps Bede might provoke a series of one-up-manship between the Kings of the various English kingdoms. The King of Wessex does one to show his kingdom is as capable of producing it. Could we even see a welsh version, to show they are as capable as the English?
 
Or perhaps Bede might provoke a series of one-up-manship between the Kings of the various English kingdoms. The King of Wessex does one to show his kingdom is as capable of producing it. Could we even see a welsh version, to show they are as capable as the English?

How about a Gaelic version for the Irish and the Scots? (Were they still British-rite Catholic at this point? :confused:
 

NapoleonXIV

Banned
Aren't you accelerating the development of all the vernacular literatures by about 600 years? And didn't this also accelerate technical progress as well, as various nationalities were encouraged to write up their national specialties (ie the Italians wrote on banking, etc)

So we have a renaissance, and then when the Carolingina renaissance comes along it's strong enough that Europe can stave off the Magyars and the Vikings
 
I suspect that Bede might have translations of each book of the Bible made seperately (as in one book per book, if you get what I mean), in the guise of interpretations thereof...

As to having the whole thing bound up in one book... would he do that?

Would the other church bigwigs in Britain even let him? :confused:

I suspect they wouldn't object, they seemed happy with partial translations so a full one is the logical step. I'm a bit hazy on the fine details but I think there wasn't a strong feeling in the Church in England at the time against parts of the bible being in English
 
Interesting thought, I think that Bede's work would of a heck of a translation. Bede was a heck of a writer, and while he wrote a lot about the difference of dates for Easter between the Irish and English, he more or less had a pro-Irish /Celt view. Also he was the most important churchmen in the most powerful of the Heptarchy states at the time. It is not till later does Mercia or Wessex become the leader of the Heptarchy.
 
I suspect that Bede might have translations of each book of the Bible made seperately (as in one book per book, if you get what I mean), in the guise of interpretations thereof...

As to having the whole thing bound up in one book... would he do that?

Would the other church bigwigs in Britain even let him? :confused:

Why would it be a problem? The idea that the Bible shouldn't be translated is a relatively late development in mainstream theology, and one frequently derided as 'Pilatianism', the heresy that holds Christianity distinguishes sacred and profane languages. Of course, Bede would still need to come up with the idea, which would have seemed strange at the time. "The Bible" as we know it is pretty much the direct descendant of the Paris Bible, a simple blackletter manuscript copy style that was created as a reference and study aid for theologians. In Bede's time, the books of the Bible usually came in separate bindings.

I'm not sure it would make a big difference, though. The dominance of Latin scholarship is likely there to stay, and before print, the circulation of the text is not going to be all that great. Unless, of course, the court of Wessex adopts it in its original form.
 
Did a stop to the translation into English not haapen after the furore caused by Wycliffe? I think the Catholic objections usually centre on the fact that translations into the vernacular were not exactly prohibited, but rather that Wycliffe held 'heretical' views and so could not be trusted to interpret the Bible- only officially sanctioned viewpoints being permitted by the RC church...) So I doubt Bede probably wouldn't have had this trouble, which was certainly present by Tyndale.

I doubt, since apparently Bede seemed to be quite big on studying the Bible, it might have sparked off an early Reformation, since I'd bet either the Scrpure interpresation methods were different back then, and it might have to wait until later ideas came along. That said, some of the sillier traditions hadn't taken hold back then, anyway, so it might not have been as bad...

EDIT: Please excuse my language, I know it's not quite neutral enough for this forum perhaps...
 
Two things needed

If an 'Anglisc' bible had been written, dispersed AND come into common usage around 900, it might have had a profound impact, IF it became the vehicle for greater literacy. If these occurred, then two things immediately come to mind. First, the formation of an Anglisc Church (perhaps as a different rite within the RC church, perhaps not), and second, the existance and use of such a bible might have stabilized the language in an earlier form.

It is interesting to speculate what the impact would have been beyond England, particularly in the Netherlands and Frisian Islands, which (I presume) were still fairly close to the English of the times.
 
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If an 'Anglisc' bible had been written, dispersed AND come into common usage around 900, it might have had a profound impact, IF it became the vehicle for greater literacy. If these occurred, then two things immediately come to mind. First, the formation of an Anglisc Church (perhaps as a different rite within the RC church, perhaps not), and second, the existance and use of such a bible might have stabilized the language in an earlier form.

It is interesting to speculate what the impact would have been beyond England, particularly in the Netherlands and Frisian Islands, which (I presume) were still fairly close to the English of the times.

It might of had a large impact on literacy, but for some reason, I don't see it having much more of a impact then his histories. He as it was, was given sainthood because of the impact of his writings. Outside of England, I think the writting would of had its greatest impact on the Picts(scots) and Irish. May also if it was used in great amounts possibly the Norse people.
 

Thande

Donor
I wonder if Aldred would still have gone ahead with his own translation project, he had parts like the Psalms and some other parts translated, or whether he would have considered Bede's version sufficient.

Or perhaps Bede might provoke a series of one-up-manship between the Kings of the various English kingdoms. The King of Wessex does one to show his kingdom is as capable of producing it. Could we even see a welsh version, to show they are as capable as the English?

That would be interesting, because it could set down in manuscript the convention that Welsh uses the K and not the C (OTL, that changed when printing came in and English printers didn't have enough Ks).
 
How influential was the Celtic Church in Bede's time? Maybe an earlier POD could give them more influence and make this full translation more likely.
 

Thande

Donor
How influential was the Celtic Church in Bede's time? Maybe an earlier POD could give them more influence and make this full translation more likely.

This was already after the Synod of Whitby, although there were still plenty of Celtic-rite monasteries and Northumbrian Christianity continued to have a strong Celtic influence.
 
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