WI An Earlier Reformation?

Many of the factors that led to the Reformation had already happened during the 14th and early 15th centuries, so could the reformation have begun during the 15th century? For example, what if Jan Hus (or a similar figure) had received protection from a sovereign in the HRE like Martin Luther did, so he he wasn't burned at the stake? There could be other factors, but since Jan Hus was the earliest reformer he could be pretty exemplary of this. What would the effects and ramifications of this be?
 
What is really needed is an earlier printing press. Yes, there were reformers long before Luther, but none of them had the ability to spread their ideas across the HRE and then the Continent the way Luther, Calvin, etc. did. Furthermore the Press enabled (relative) mass literacy enabling merchants, etc. to adopt the ideas themselves and spread them.

The person most responsible for the Reformation was not Martin Luther--there were many other dissenting clergymen who filled his shoes--but Johannes Gutenberg.
 
What is really needed is an earlier printing press. Yes, there were reformers long before Luther, but none of them had the ability to spread their ideas across the HRE and then the Continent the way Luther, Calvin, etc. did. Furthermore the Press enabled (relative) mass literacy enabling merchants, etc. to adopt the ideas themselves and spread them.

The person most responsible for the Reformation was not Martin Luther--there were many other dissenting clergymen who filled his shoes--but Johannes Gutenberg.

I wholeheartedly agree. How could the printing press have been developed sooner? Since versions of the device were developed in China far before in Europe, could the pan-Eurasian Mongol Empire have potentially introduced a form of the printing press, or suggested it via travelers and traders to China?
 
I wholeheartedly agree. How could the printing press have been developed sooner? Since versions of the device were developed in China far before in Europe, could the pan-Eurasian Mongol Empire have potentially introduced a form of the printing press, or suggested it via travelers and traders to China?

The issue is that, since Chinese has so many characters, movable type really can't develop there. It has to be done in a region that has a regular alphabet, which to me means either Europe or possibly Dar ul-Islam (IDK if medieval Arabic or Persian had a flexible enough letter system to allow for movable type).

So it could develop earlier in Europe, in theory. It was bound to happen at some point; when it did is another matter.

It would be interesting to see a world where Protestant doctrines are first published in Czech by Jan Hus and then spread through the Slavic rather than German world. Perhaps it is imagined as a way to undo the Great Schism? Without religious divisions Pan-Slavism may become a much more powerful force...or may be butterflied entirely.
 
The issue is that, since Chinese has so many characters, movable type really can't develop there. It has to be done in a region that has a regular alphabet, which to me means either Europe or possibly Dar ul-Islam (IDK if medieval Arabic or Persian had a flexible enough letter system to allow for movable type).

So it could develop earlier in Europe, in theory. It was bound to happen at some point; when it did is another matter.

It would be interesting to see a world where Protestant doctrines are first published in Czech by Jan Hus and then spread through the Slavic rather than German world. Perhaps it is imagined as a way to undo the Great Schism? Without religious divisions Pan-Slavism may become a much more powerful force...or may be butterflied entirely.

Hm, would it be seen as unifying for the Slavs though? Bohemia was much closer culturally and politically with its German neighbors than it was with its Slavic neighbors, and Hussite theology even made inroads into Hungary. Poland probably would be open to conversion, though. A Czech bible would be very close to a Polish one!
 
Was Gutenberg's printing press a case of an invention that was created almost as soon as it became possible for it to be created, or a case of something that could have been invented decades or even centuries earlier in more or less its eventual form, but wasn't for whatever reason? It would seem to be the latter, as Europe knew about the use of movable type in China in some capacity for some time before 1450.
 
Was Gutenberg's printing press a case of an invention that was created almost as soon as it became possible for it to be created, or a case of something that could have been invented decades or even centuries earlier in more or less its eventual form, but wasn't for whatever reason? It would seem to be the latter, as Europe knew about the use of movable type in China in some capacity for some time before 1450.

You need to have good enough metallurgy to consistently get lead/tin/antimony or similar to simultaneously be capable of being cast in fine detail and durable enough to withstand the printing process without distortion. I have no idea when this became a technological possibility but I'd guess after cannon casting developed.
 
Hm, would it be seen as unifying for the Slavs though? Bohemia was much closer culturally and politically with its German neighbors than it was with its Slavic neighbors, and Hussite theology even made inroads into Hungary. Poland probably would be open to conversion, though. A Czech bible would be very close to a Polish one!

I mean, OTL shows that the Germans reacted...violently to the Hussites. Politically, Bohemia was indeed closer to the HRE than to Poland. However, given the conflict and the language barriers, it seems much more likely to me that Hussite tracts make their way to Krakow than to Vienna, Dresden, or Munich.
 

Md139115

Banned
Really any time fifty years after the Black Death could see a Reformation-style movement take off.

The Black Death killed off anywhere between a third to a half of the poor of Germany and a bit less in Poland. This enabled the peasants in those countries, as in the rest of Europe, to gain larger tracts of land and command higher wages than they had previously. Unlike their counterparts in Western Europe though, the Central European peasants didn’t gain the same expansion of rights, and in a few cases, their rights backslid. When, two generations later, the population had bounced back to pre-plague levels, these peasants found that their wages were less than that of their parents, the prices of their crops was about the same or less due to increased production outstripping the population increase, and they now had less legal protections.

From that point on, rebellion in the HRE was a frequent occurrence that could be sparked by anything, with religious mystics condemning the hypocrisies of the Church probably being the favorites.

I highly recommend this book for more information: https://books.google.com/books/abou...BAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button
 
Really any time fifty years after the Black Death could see a Reformation-style movement take off.

The Black Death killed off anywhere between a third to a half of the poor of Germany and a bit less in Poland. This enabled the peasants in those countries, as in the rest of Europe, to gain larger tracts of land and command higher wages than they had previously. Unlike their counterparts in Western Europe though, the Central European peasants didn’t gain the same expansion of rights, and in a few cases, their rights backslid. When, two generations later, the population had bounced back to pre-plague levels, these peasants found that their wages were less than that of their parents, the prices of their crops was about the same or less due to increased production outstripping the population increase, and they now had less legal protections.

From that point on, rebellion in the HRE was a frequent occurrence that could be sparked by anything, with religious mystics condemning the hypocrisies of the Church probably being the favorites.

I highly recommend this book for more information: https://books.google.com/books/abou...BAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button

The issue is that there's no way for their ideas to spread rapidly enough for the Reformation to happen. OTL shows furthermore that such revolts tended to divide internally and face massive backlash from the Catholic nobility. Nine times in ten, the reformation has to be moderate enough to appease the nobility; the only exception to this I can see would be in the Hansa if the merchants got on board somehow.
 

Md139115

Banned
The issue is that there's no way for their ideas to spread rapidly enough for the Reformation to happen. OTL shows furthermore that such revolts tended to divide internally and face massive backlash from the Catholic nobility. Nine times in ten, the reformation has to be moderate enough to appease the nobility; the only exception to this I can see would be in the Hansa if the merchants got on board somehow.

This is true, and one of the chief strengths of Luther was that he was inoffensive to the nobles, however, the powder is still there. There is still a scenario whereby an earlier Luther can stand up, say something, convince Prince X that he (or she!) is right, and from there, a whole string of unrest and revolt radiates out across Germany as peasants use it as an excuse to rebel against the hierarchy.
 
Top