WI: An earlier development of the Horten Ho-229?


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The Horten Ho-229 wasn't fully developed and only managed to fly in glider form in 1944.

What if it was developed earlier and thus was able to enter production in 1943 or even 1942?
How would this effect the Allies strategic bombing campaign if used as a defense fighter?
Would the Ho-229 be useful as a bomber destroyer?
How would the Allies negate the effectiveness of this aircraft?
Would it be effective as a light bomber (it's original intended role) if used to attack targets such as the same as the Mosquito?

Much obliged!
 
As far as I'm aware early flying wings were pigs to fly, because they lacked all the modern tech that helps the pilot not end up at the bottom of a smoking crater. Has the Luftwaffe got enough skilled pilots left by 42/43 that could fly one unaided?

Sorry I asked another question I just don't know enough about the airframe to suggest a best way to deploy it.
 
The Horten Ho-229 wasn't fully developed and only managed to fly in glider form in 1944.
It was a radically different and new design with corresponding delays in getting the thing into production as unexpected problems, design defects and the like need to be overcome.
What if it was developed earlier and thus was able to enter production in 1943 or even 1942?
What is sacrificed to get the thing into production? Traditional fighter production? Bombers? Maybe the Me-262?
How would this effect the Allies strategic bombing campaign if used as a defense fighter?
Likely no more than the Me-262 did, even if it got into production in 43 (dont see 42) supply chain and production issues would likely mean not as many would ever be produced, and have limited effectiveness as the Allies bomb the factories which make the thing, fuel manufacturers, and airstrips. Also quality of pilot training would probably still be lacking as the Germans would still lack fuel and experienced surviving pilots to train new ones.
Would the Ho-229 be useful as a bomber destroyer?
Probably, on its own it would be very useful, just not sure you would see enough of them to seriously effect allied bomber streams.
How would the Allies negate the effectiveness of this aircraft?
Destroy the industry and infrastructure to support the plane and train its pilots? Try to get allied jets in service earlier?
Would it be effective as a light bomber (it's original intended role) if used to attack targets such as the same as the Mosquito?
Maybe, or it would fly to fast for accurately hitting its targets with 1940s bombsights. Could be a useful resource dump for German resources though as with other late war German aircraft projects.
Much obliged!
Yep.
 
As far as I'm aware early flying wings were pigs to fly, because they lacked all the modern tech that helps the pilot not end up at the bottom of a smoking crater. Has the Luftwaffe got enough skilled pilots left by 42/43 that could fly one unaided?

Sorry I asked another question I just don't know enough about the airframe to suggest a best way to deploy it.
I dont think its that the planes were horrible to fly so much as they handled very differently to traditional aircraft. Unsurprising given how different they were. So a pilot trying to fly it as any other plane he was used to would have issues. Once you know what not to do though then you could begin really developing the tactics to get the most out of the plane.
 
I dont think its that the planes were horrible to fly so much as they handled very differently to traditional aircraft. Unsurprising given how different they were. So a pilot trying to fly it as any other plane he was used to would have issues. Once you know what not to do though then you could begin really developing the tactics to get the most out of the plane.
That's probably worse, a flyable plane, that needs pilots to retrain away from the 'rules' they know to fly it.
 
That's probably worse, a flyable plane, that needs pilots to retrain away from the 'rules' they know to fly it.
Very probably, the best result we could see from the plane is that the Luftwaffe puts their most experienced remaining pilots in these things and they either crash or are shot down after making mistakes by the bombers they are attacking. As a result the quality of Luftwaffe pilots is effected even worse and the allies hit more German industry, leading to the war ending sooner.

Best case really.
 
I think the Horten brothers would have to cage fight Messerschmitt over who gets the engine allocations!

ric350
 

marathag

Banned
Three things.
1st. Flying Wings propelled by jet power have less stability in yaw and pitch than conventional propeller powered aircraft, and are twitchy.
2nd.
Flying Wings are very sensitive to changes of trim when weight shifted, making them even more unstable.
That's as fuel burns, and ammunition is expended, so those variable weights had to be very near the CoG.
3rd
Earlier airframe doesn't mean earlier turbojets work any better.
 
The Horten Ho-229 wasn't fully developed and only managed to fly in glider form in 1944.

What if it was developed earlier and thus was able to enter production in 1943 or even 1942?
How would this effect the Allies strategic bombing campaign if used as a defense fighter?
Would the Ho-229 be useful as a bomber destroyer?
How would the Allies negate the effectiveness of this aircraft?
Would it be effective as a light bomber (it's original intended role) if used to attack targets such as the same as the Mosquito?

Much obliged!

It would be great at killing German pilots in accidents and crashes given that non-fly by wire flying wings are death traps even in the hands of expert pilots.
 
Well in a very left field effect if it saw service earlier it might have a significant impact on the UFO movement when Kenneth Arnold drew this:

View attachment 706534
According to UFO lore, there was a memo written by Nathan Twining in 1947/48 that asked where the Horten brothers were.

The Ho 229 V2 second prototype did fly under jet power but was destroyed on landing after it's second flight, killing the pilot. The large nose gear door acted as an airbrake. The uncompleted forms of several prototypes were captured by the US Army.

As attractive and futuristic as it looks, the Ho229 is another white hope, along with all the other napkinwaffe designs.
 
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CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
WAllies win the war a year earlier.

Flying wings are dynamically unstable, and unpredictably so. Without "fly by wire" computer intervention they will, for no predictable reason, enter into multiple axes instability (charmingly known a a falling leaf spin).

Put another way they just sort of stop flying due to a irreversible loss of thrust and lift, resulting in a rather abrupt end to the flight and a closed casket funeral for all on board, and do it at random.

Very probably, the best result we could see from the plane is that the Luftwaffe puts their most experienced remaining pilots in these things and they either crash or are shot down after making mistakes by the bombers they are attacking. As a result the quality of Luftwaffe pilots is effected even worse and the allies hit more German industry, leading to the war ending sooner.

Best case really.
Or just flying through the turbulence that a bomber box created. If you ever look at the footage taken from bombers in formation you will see them constantly bobbing up and down by six or seven feet as the prop wash and dirty air caused by the aircraft in front of them roil the air. Now take a aircraft that is unstable into that air.
 
The design looks amazing. The reality? Not so much.
Northrup had been working on flying wings for a lot longer with a lot more invested and had huge issues so to assume this thing was somehow going to do what no other flying wing in history has EVER done (B-2 included) and actually be stable and safe to fly is shear folly. The B-2 gets around the inheart flying wing issue with fly by wire computers the Prop jobs sort of got around it with those big fan shaped gyroscope type things. This thing is going to be a nightmare. And as a fighter? Good luck.
IIRC didn’t a few wings have a tendency to want to back flip?
Also with early German jets buried in the way those are have fun replacing them. That is going to be a huge pain to maintain
 

marathag

Banned
The design looks amazing. The reality? Not so much.
Northrup had been working on flying wings for a lot longer with a lot more invested and had huge issues so to assume this thing was somehow going to do what no other flying wing in history has EVER done (B-2 included) and actually be stable and safe to fly is shear folly. The B-2 gets around the inheart flying wing issue with fly by wire computers the Prop jobs sort of got around it with those big fan shaped gyroscope type things. This thing is going to be a nightmare. And as a fighter? Good luck.
Northrop XB-49 is why it's Edwards AFB, and not Muroc
 
I agree that getting a jet powered flying wing design working with '40s techbase is a challenge at best and basically impossible at worst for the reasons others have pointed out, but does anybody have any actual performance projections for the 229? Is it that much better than a 262 for example?
 

marathag

Banned
Also with early German jets buried in the way those are have fun replacing them. That is going to be a huge pain to maintain
I'd be more worried on the Pilot being inline with the compressor section of two turbojets, and needing to dodge the blades when they would fly loose
 
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