WI - An ATL 1960's counterculture in an USA which lost WW2

Somehow, I don't believe that the American people could just go on in the same way taking it all in their stride if their nation lost a major war with far more casualties than the Vietnam War and the nuking of one of their cities even if they aren't invaded by troops at any point. The national humiliation has to have some effect.

A bitter peace? The some effect, as I've said, would be making them more militarized (and vengeful) than OTL. Remember, the counterculture of Vietnam era was made by the remarkable amount of freedom available to OTL 1950s-60s America thanks to victory in WWII. With a defeat in WWII, there wouldn't exist an impetus to "relax", so to speak. It would be straight down to a harder Cold War mentality in preparing for the "final" struggle to decide the overall geopolitical picture - not much time for easy living when 3/4 of Eurasia is under German, Italian or Japanese control, and they have nukes.
 
Brings up the image of badass hippies and beatniks that got the name from beating people up.

Didn't the name beatnik come from a combination of "beat" and "sputnik" (the satellite)? "Beat" here refers to the beat generation of authors and musicians who practiced a certain style, not the act of beating people up.

Remember, the counterculture of Vietnam era was made by the remarkable amount of freedom available to OTL 1950s-60s America thanks to victory in WWII. With a defeat in WWII, there wouldn't exist an impetus to "relax", so to speak.
In the sixties, you had a very sharp generation gap that separated anybody born before 1935 with anyone born after 1940. (In 1967, the buzzword was "don't trust anyone over 30") The hippies came from the Vietnam-draft birth years, late thirties to early fifties. The protests came from the attitude that the Vietnam war was not necessary and yes, that attitude would not exist with a defeat in WWII.

Look how the generations today seem to blend into each other, from the midpoint of the Baby Boom (artificially labeled by the sudden rise and fall in birth rate in 1946 and 1964) to today. Examine the attitudes and values of groups of people in five year increments. As you step from the late fifties into the eighties, you pass through a whole generation, but each group blends into next in terms of attitudes and values, with no defined gap. With a loss in WWII, this blending of generations would be gradual throughout the century, with no defined gap. Without the gap, you do not have a counter-culture as we know it. The most you have are beatniks who isolate themselves from the mainstream with their words and music, not hippies who want to change society.
 
Didn't the name beatnik come from a combination of "beat" and "sputnik" (the satellite)? "Beat" here refers to the beat generation of authors and musicians who practiced a certain style, not the act of beating people up.

Mark, I think he was talking about the ATL :rolleyes:
 

Teleology

Banned
Weird thought, but if the Germans killed Stalin and captured Russia up to Moscow, isn't it possible that in the early Cold War that Siberian Nationalists will overthrow the Rump Soviets, and join the Japanese in a "glorious anti-German/anti-communist alliance"?

Similarly, I can't see the Germans pushing through the Indus Valley region, Afghanistan would catch them in their tracks.

So who would of been helping the Indians overthrow Mosley's oppressive attempts to hold on to India? The Japanese.

So you would have the Japanese Empire with some junior allies (not full fledged equals but not puppet governments either). The Greater East-Asian Co-Prosperity Organization would be the core organization of Japan and it's puppets, it's junior allies would constitute some larger Pacific Rim Pact or something.

Maybe Mosley didn't do squat for Europe but then was surprised when the Germans knocked him out of Egypt on their way to the oil and to set up the USSR for a double-pronged invasion?

So you have German Europe, West Russia, Middle East...when they start feuding with the Italians they'd got them off from the Suez Canal and the Italians would lose their East African holdings...

So did the Germans eventually betray the Vichy, consolidate France, and give French North Africa away from the Vichy colonials there to the Italians, only to try to take it away in the Cold War?

A Mexican Civil War where US-backed forces barely defeated the fascist Sinarquistas would be interesting, and Brazil not being entirely dependent on the US - IIRC that Brazilian dictator guy was very good at playing fascists and democrats against each other.


Anyways, the counterculture as it is won't be a powerful youth movement due to the lack of a big Baby Boom as people have said; and you have to decide what direction the establishment is taking.

If the establishment is for static defenses, turning North America into Fortress America, then the counterculture will want to go on the offensive (citing the failure of the Maginot Line). If the establishment is interventionist and in favor of mobile warfare and this expensive assault army standing around in peace time, then the counterculture will be in favor of isolationism and waging the Cold War defensively.
 
Mark, I think he was talking about the ATL :rolleyes:

I see what you are saying. Sorry for the misinterpretation.

ATL's counterculture could have some strong quasi-fascist elements. Cult of action and strength, arguing that traditional institutions and mores need to be overturned for the sake of Youth and Efficiency, etc. You know, like the German counterculture of the 20s.

In OTL, you had white racist skinhead groups in the 1980's. I don't think you would call them a counterculture because they did not evoke a society-wide penetration.

The true OTL "hippies" were small in numbers but they had a style, a message, music and dress that reached into the mainstream. Students would spend the time of breaks between classes to join sit-in protests on college campuses. In a few years, they would graduate and enter the business world. There were "Jesus Freaks" applied Christian values as they supported peace and an end to the war.

Let us compare elements of OTL counterculture with something that could happen in ATL.

Resistance to war and conscription: Not in ATL.

Music: Yes. Evolving high fidelity was inevitable and would have an impact on the composition of music no matter what.

Environmental awareness: Delayed.

Civil Rights: more complex.

Martin Luther King refuted "separate but equal" with words like "islands of poverty in a sea of prosperity." But with less prosperity, fewer appliances, fewer automobiles, less suburban growth, and a longer reliance on passenger railroads, these arguments come later. Travelers are less likely to raise protest to segregated rail travel as long as they can get to their destination. The protests and risk of injury come after the railroads cut service and drivers through Crossburn, Georgia are denied food, shelter and services because they are black.

The presence of a multi-faceted cold war could create a sense of nationalism that tends to hold down racism a little. Civil rights awareness is delayed.

In OTL, youth-oriented music comes cocurrent with civil rights. In ATL, music evolves first and civil rights might start more youth-oriented.
 
A different proposal:

In OTL's Cold War, the 50s saw a massive reaction against Communism in America. In a Kalterkrieg timeline, the 50s probably see a massive reaction against Naziism instead. Plus, instead of "Who lost China?". you have "Who lost pretty much everywhere?" You still get the fear and the enforced conformity--probably even more so, since the U.S. lost the war. But you have different norms enforced. For instance, the Japanese may be kept in the internment camps--and the KKK is sent to join them. Joe McCarthy probably hunts for Fascists in high places instead of Communists; if he doesn't, someone else does. Greasers and JDs might even get hammered harder--in a world where the SS is still in business in the 50s, Heartland America is probably not amused by rebellious young people wearing black leather jackets with chrome accessories.

As for the counterculture: in OTL, the 60s counterculture was a leftwing reaction to the 50s. In this TL, it is probably a right-wing reaction to the *50s. Since it is a reaction to decade of conformity, in some ways it is very much like OTL. But since the Enemy is Nazi instead of Communist, in some ways it is very different.

In this TL, the proto-"green" politics are associated with the Nazis. Expect versions of the Wandervogeln. Note that in this TL, there is not much hard evidence of the Holocaust (depending on the butterflies, it may not even have happened! A victorious Germany may have "merely" dumped all the Jews in Siberia or Madagascar or someplace unpleasant like that. Bad, but not as bad as OTL.) On the other hand, denial of Stalin's gulags is impossible for all but a few cranks--Germany has made sure there is lots of photographic evidence. So instead of hippies asking if Communism is really so bad, you get a counterculture asking if fascism is really so bad. A difference--this counterculture is probably not pacifist (since the U.S. lost)--it probably has a theme that America's lack of moral fiber and resolve lead to its defeat. On the other hand, they probably regard the old America Firsters about how the New Left regarded the Old Left in OTL--a bunch of old farts who hadn't accomplished jack.

The drugs probably do become part of the alternate counterculture--the alternate Establishment probably dislikes that kind of monkey business even more than OTL's.
 
Didn't the name beatnik come from a combination of "beat" and "sputnik" (the satellite)? "Beat" here refers to the beat generation of authors and musicians who practiced a certain style, not the act of beating people up.

I was joking obviously in response to the post that I was replying to.

Although, if the Germans got the first satellite in orbit, it's doubtful that the Beatniks would have "nik" in the term as you point out.
 
Adam, I'm going to reply to both of your previous posts at the same time as I didn't have the free moment to spare before. (luckily for me, I have the day off)


Ah, getting to the meat of things.:D

It would be more militarized than OTL, especially so if the Axis have a presence (or hints of one) anywhere in the Americas. Think of the 1940s on 10x rocket boosters, or the post-Eurasian War AoD from Domination trilogy.

I agree. All sides would be more militarised than what occurred IOTL during the Cold War. It's a far more unstable and frightening situation with a 3-sided cold war, especially if the factions might split further. In some ways, it's like the Pre-WW1 political atmosphere in Europe with nuclear weapons added to the mix, then expanded to a global scale. The tension would be mindboggling, like being on the verge of a Cuban Missile Crisis with the threat of global nuclear war just around the corner every year. They'd have really, really, really good diplomats and extremely nervous overworked espionage agents.

A I disagree that anything like the peace movement formed during Vietnam would arise - something smaller might develop, but it would probably not be significant enough in the American zeitgeist.

Possibly a more fanatical peace movement, even if smaller. A lot of that would be pure escapism, with fantastic utopian ideologies that are entirely impractical.

On the other hand, many would be trying to promote world government by some kind of shared assembly of nations. It wouldn't be called the United Nations as that was originally a term only for the Allies and those against the Axis nations.

More possibly, a feeling of despair and ennui combined with an inevitable fey for the "Final Struggle" would develop - its either they crush the Eurasian boogeymen when the time comes, or pay a cost beyond measure for all time.

That could be at the heart of American culture in this ATL, and definitely resonate in the rest of the Capitalist Bloc nations. It would make for some very stirring music, and be common in art films.

It's rather like the Sci-Fi universe of Warhammer 40K. I bet the USA would have truly kickass Marines in this timeline, their military would be extremely motivated.

Of course, that's not counting in factors like the aforementioned German-Italian-Japanese sphere split, or all three suffering internal breakdowns...

I suspect that they're not the only side on the edge of breakdown in such a world. The collapse of the USSR (what's left of it) would be accelerated. The USA's economic problems would accumulate much more quickly, while the environment in all of these nations would worsen more rapidly.

A bitter peace? The some effect, as I've said, would be making them more militarized (and vengeful) than OTL.

Certainly. With all the awful consequences of that, but there'd be benefits too, I'm sure (though I can't think what they'd be yet).

There'd be far less tolerance of corruption and far less tolerance of shady treasonous actions by government officials. Criminal punishments would be harsher.

Remember, the counterculture of Vietnam era was made by the remarkable amount of freedom available to OTL 1950s-60s America thanks to victory in WWII. With a defeat in WWII, there wouldn't exist an impetus to "relax", so to speak.

Maybe the relaxation is just not out in the open so much. More alcoholism, shady bars, secretive parties behind closed doors. People would want to escape from all that tense seriousness that'd be common in public life.

I suppose that there could be some ideas from how the people of the Confederate states coped with the defeat by the North. Although very different era, and no kind of occupation or rule by the other side.

It would be straight down to a harder Cold War mentality in preparing for the "final" struggle to decide the overall geopolitical picture - not much time for easy living when 3/4 of Eurasia is under German, Italian or Japanese control, and they have nukes.

They'd be better prepared. I'd assume there would be more of the survivalist thinking. To be a "rebel", you react against it by acting blasé as if none of it mattered.

Would James Dean be a more careful driver in this ATL? Perhaps he's in the Army.
 
Possibly a more fanatical peace movement, even if smaller. A lot of that would be pure escapism, with fantastic utopian ideologies that are entirely impractical.
..........
Maybe the relaxation is just not out in the open so much. More alcoholism, shady bars, secretive parties behind closed doors. People would want to escape from all that tense seriousness that'd be common in public life.

All that might be left of the counterculture would be the element of escapism. These might branch from the "beat" movement that had roots in the WWII era, but of course, without the name beatnik. It would be an idealist philosophy that would not grow fast. When the trend reaches the seventies, it becomes a sort of cynicism of resistance that stays beyond closed doors with no real image of moving to influence the sociopolitical mainstream. They earn their livings and their free speech accumulates into volumes regarded as disjunct to real life. Movements for civil rights and environmentalism might reflect some their attitudes, but I can not see a full-blown counterculture that penetrates society.
 
Weird thought, but if the Germans killed Stalin and captured Russia up to Moscow, isn't it possible that in the early Cold War that Siberian Nationalists will overthrow the Rump Soviets, and join the Japanese in a "glorious anti-German/anti-communist alliance"?

Similarly, I can't see the Germans pushing through the Indus Valley region, Afghanistan would catch them in their tracks.

So who would of been helping the Indians overthrow Mosley's oppressive attempts to hold on to India? The Japanese.

So you would have the Japanese Empire with some junior allies (not full fledged equals but not puppet governments either). The Greater East-Asian Co-Prosperity Organization would be the core organization of Japan and it's puppets, it's junior allies would constitute some larger Pacific Rim Pact or something.

Maybe Mosley didn't do squat for Europe but then was surprised when the Germans knocked him out of Egypt on their way to the oil and to set up the USSR for a double-pronged invasion?

So you have German Europe, West Russia, Middle East...when they start feuding with the Italians they'd got them off from the Suez Canal and the Italians would lose their East African holdings...

So did the Germans eventually betray the Vichy, consolidate France, and give French North Africa away from the Vichy colonials there to the Italians, only to try to take it away in the Cold War?

A Mexican Civil War where US-backed forces barely defeated the fascist Sinarquistas would be interesting, and Brazil not being entirely dependent on the US - IIRC that Brazilian dictator guy was very good at playing fascists and democrats against each other.


Anyways, the counterculture as it is won't be a powerful youth movement due to the lack of a big Baby Boom as people have said; and you have to decide what direction the establishment is taking.

If the establishment is for static defenses, turning North America into Fortress America, then the counterculture will want to go on the offensive (citing the failure of the Maginot Line). If the establishment is interventionist and in favor of mobile warfare and this expensive assault army standing around in peace time, then the counterculture will be in favor of isolationism and waging the Cold War defensively.


You've given a lot of fascinating ideas to work with there. I'm going to get back to this later and edit this post with a decent reply. It really fills out the background, but of course each part will have to be checked separately.
 
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