WI an alternate Emperor in 1519?

The election followed the death of Emperor Maximilian on 12 January, 1519 was one of the most hotly contested elections of the later Empire. There was no German contender; the two main candidates were Charles Duke of Burgundy who had recently become King of Spain, and Francis I King of France. Running as a dark-horse candidate was King Henry VIII of England... Charles and Francis tried to outdo each other in voluminous bribes Charles, whose income was augmented by Spain's silver mines in the Americas, in the end had deeper pockets. Charles could count on the vote of the King of Bohemia, his brother-in-law; Francis had bought the Elector of Trier; up for grabs were the Electors of Mainz, Brandenburg and the Palatinate. Although full details of the election were never revealed, it is possible that the Electors sought a way out of their dilemma by electing as Emperor the Elector of Saxony, but that he turned them down. In the end, Charles was elected unanimously, though with some misgivings by the Elector of Brandenburg.
WI Francis or Henry managed to bought first the remaining Electors? How is History altered with Francis or Henry as Holy Roman Emperor???
 
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If Francis I had managed to buy the Electoral College he would have ressurected the old Carolingian Empire by uniting Germany with France...
 

Susano

Banned
If Francis I had managed to buy the Electoral College he would have ressurected the old Carolingian Empire by uniting Germany with France...

No he wouldnt. With the weak position of the Emperor in the HRE, thats where the difference of personal and real union really kicks in even in the early modern age. Or wasHungary united with Germany? No, even though its King was also Roman-German Emperor.

As Ive often said I do think that the stories of bribes and the Fugger gold get overstated. The money had its role, yes, but lets not forget that Habsburg at this point had been Emperors for generations already. Still, its possible that King Francis wins the elections. This is bad news for the Reformation - Charles V didnt manage to crack down on it because he was so often elsewhere in Europe, and distracted by the wars with the Ottomans and France.

France, differnet to Spain, is right next to Germany, so geography will be less of a problem, and I cant see Charles supporting the protestant powers in Germany as France did. Besides, Habsburg will still have problems with the Ottomans... the only thing that could prevent Francis from cracking down on German protestants would be the French protestants (and I do assume from their role that Francis would go an anti-Reformation course).
 
(and I do assume from their role that Francis would go an anti-Reformation course).

That depends on whether the affaire de placards ( which will likely be butterflied away - new staff, likely new palace, in 15 years - ) had the influance it is supposed to have had. If not - and if Francis isn't in political fight with the pope -, then Francis is likely to be anti-reformation.

If the placard affair really had such an influance, or in Francis is in a big political fight with the pope due to his HRE position, then a Gallic Church ( or Gallo-German - Frankish? - ) is likely.

Which, of course, leaves the Habsburg as THE catholic champion ( in cohort with the Guise?, assuming they still decide to champion catholicism ). But Habsburg power is spread out all over Europe and very vulnerable in some places.

Or there could be the other way around. If HRE Francis is championing Rome, the the Habsburg may decide to support reform, in their northern lands, at least....

In short, I think everything is up for grabs.
 

Susano

Banned
Or there could be the other way around. If HRE Francis is championing Rome, the the Habsburg may decide to support reform, in their northern lands, at least....
I can see Ferdinand doing this in Austria, but Charles in Spain and Burgundy (incl Lower COuntries)? No chance, IMO. He himself was too deeply catholic, and so is Spain, so I dont think teh country would look kindly upon Charles sponsoring the reformation, even if in the capacity of a ruler elsewhere...

Hm. I had a chronological error in the previous version of this post: Of course, Calvinism wont be around for some decades. Luther of course had spoken out against forming a national church, and Francis giving the chruch an universal apeparance fits better for a ruler of two (three, with Italy) nations anyways. Of course, it could be that if not pushed by the Emperor, hesse and South Germany will not accept Luthers creed (which was a compromise for politcial reasons), but Zwinglis creed...

Seeing as conflict with the Pope is likely for Francis, wholl now definitly be the strongest of teh rivaling powers in Italy, I guess France-Germany supporting the Reformation is more likely then...
 
I can see Ferdinand doing this in Austria, but Charles in Spain and Burgundy (incl Lower COuntries)? No chance, IMO. He himself was too deeply catholic, and so is Spain, so I dont think teh country would look kindly upon Charles sponsoring the reformation, even if in the capacity of a ruler elsewhere...

I Agree with you about Spain.

However, needs must when the Devil drives. And the Low countries are very vulnerable if there is an internal revolt and a hostile ( even if secretely ) emperor.... Maybe an eventual separation of the Habsburg lands different from OTL? With the Low countries going to a Habsburg which can get support from the dutch Protestant. There's also the question of the Habsburg Alsace lands.
Hm. I had a chronological error in the previous version of this post: Of course, Calvinism wont be around for some decades. Luther of course had spoken out against forming a national church, and Francis giving the chruch an universal apeparance fits better for a ruler of two (three, with Italy) nations anyways.

Yes. But there is the english exemple ( and the wealth of the Churhc to be put into the King/Emperor coffers, which is a big temptation.

Of course, it could be that if not pushed by the Emperor, hesse and South Germany will not accept Luthers creed (which was a compromise for politcial reasons), but Zwinglis creed...

Ouch. That will not make for compromise or tolerence.


Seeing as conflict with the Pope is likely for Francis, wholl now definitly be the strongest of teh rivaling powers in Italy, I guess France-Germany supporting the Reformation is more likely then...

Yes, that may well be the key.

IF protestant do not infuriate Francis ( or if Affaire des placards - or its ITTL equivalent - do not trulle have the influance it is reputed to have had ) AND if the pope sets himself in conflict with the King/Emperor ( and it may well be the pope definitely try to avoid this at nearly any cost ), then, there's a big chance, IMO, that Reform will be supported officially. Which is likely to go in directions different from OTL. Either an gallo-roman Church, segregation by Town or toleration( enforced by arms if necessary ). All of which would make interesting changes. To begin with, there's Henry II; which OTL was extremely anti-protestant, not to mention all the noble famillies which OTL, chose a religion for political gain.
 

Susano

Banned
However, needs must when the Devil drives. And the Low countries are very vulnerable if there is an internal revolt and a hostile ( even if secretely ) emperor.... Maybe an eventual separation of the Habsburg lands different from OTL? With the Low countries going to a Habsburg which can get support from the dutch Protestant. There's also the question of the Habsburg Alsace lands.
Hm. If Germany (together with France) goes officially Lutheran, it could well be that the Netherlands also become Lutheran, and not Calvinist. I think such a big boost for Luther could indeed strangle Calvinism at birth. By adopting Lutheranism the NL would seperate politcially from unliked Burgundy-Spain, while ankling for support of the Emperor...

Now, Ferdinand was fairly open to Protestantism, but hes only governor in Austria, not Burgundy-Netherlands. And I cant see him become it (and later rulrer in the Netherlands), really: Charles has no reason to support such, as it would reduce his eprsonal power, and Francis has no reasn to support such as he wants the Netherlands ideally seperated from Habsburg.

Yes. But there is the english exemple ( and the wealth of the Churhc to be put into the King/Emperor coffers, which is a big temptation.
You have that with Lutehranism, too. Luther explictly stated the monarchs should be heads of their states church, which was why Lutheranism became so influential in Germany ;) Of course, the question at least in Germany then becomes to whom money and land go: The Emperor, or the territorial princes?

Ouch. That will not make for compromise or tolerence.
Its a possibility, but then... apparently, politcial pressure was enough for Landgrave Philip to adopt Lutheranism, to have an united protestant front. Political pressure in the form of the Emperor and Saxony breathing down his neck could have the same results ITTL. Though South Germany, with its patchwork collection of hudnreds of ministates - I could see several of them becoming Zwinglian. IOTL, Landgrave Philip was more or less teh spokesperson for the Upper German cities inside the Schmalkalden League, and hence could influence them to stay "with the party line", so to say. But heres no Schmalkalden League, so the cities will all go their own religious way...

Actually, not Zwingli, but Martin Bucer would most likely lead this from Strassburg, but he was mostly Zwinglian. After Zwingli and Luther failed to find common ground, Bucer tried to stay with Luther, but this failed, too. Here, he might instead seek concordance with Zwingli, and find it. Might even be he leads the Zwinlian movement after Zwinglis death... then again, he apparently genuinly dislike dthe protetsant infighting, so he might try to stay on Francis and Luthers line. Given how he eventually didnt even IOTL I doubt this, though.
 
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