WI: American MIG-21 and Russian F-104

kernals12

Banned
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I'm going to tell you the story of two fighter jets from the same time period for very similar roles that wound up with starkly different reputations.

The MIG-21 and Lockheed F-104 Starfighter were both billed as highly manueverable lightweight combat aircraft. The MIG would wind up being the greatest fighter of its era, lauded for its amazing combination of speed and agility.

The F-104 turned out to be more dangerous to its own pilots than any enemy aircraft and it was later revealed that the company that built it resorted to bribing politicians in several countries to get their air forces to buy it.

The 2 planes met for the first time in 1971 in the war between Pakistan, who had F-104s, and India, who had MIG-21s. The result was predictable.

So what if the planes had switched at birth, that is, a plane identical to OTL MIG-21 (with American-made engines of course) had been conceived by the Lockheed corporation and entered service as the F-104 while a plane identical to OTL F-104 had been conceived by the Mikoyan-Gurevich design bureau in the Soviet Union and entered service as the MiG-21?
 

Khanzeer

Banned
Mig does not fit NATO requirement or doctrine
Not enough range
Not enough payload

F104 is like mig23MS in terms of performance and armament
 
The F-104 actually remaind competitive longer than the Mig-21.
Mig-21 did not have the fuselage space necessary to upgrade its sensor package.
Compounded with for pilot visibility. Leading to the mig-21's dismal combat record from the 1980s on.
The Soviet F-104 would remain in production and in Frontline service longer than the Mig-21.
While American mig-21s would quickly be replaced by F-16s starting in the late 1970s.
A modified American mig-21 would probably try to compete with the F-16 for fighter contract. It would have had air intakes on the side of the fuselage like a F-5 alowing for a larger radar and a cut down dorsal spine to allow for better visibility to the rear.
 
The American MiG21 is the F-5
The Soviet F-104 is the Su-11

None are exact analogues, but show how each side saw the lighteweight tactical fighter (F5/MiG-21) and the fast interceptor (Su-9 and Su-11/F-104)
 
The F-104 actually remaind competitive longer than the Mig-21.
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What?
The MiG-21 is in service today, in MiG-21bison form, and in MiG-21bis form was a mainstay of many airfrces in the 80s and 90s.
The F-104 faded from service in the 80s.
 
The soviet "Rocket with a man in it" The Su-11 was not as pretty as the F-104A but had a better reputation in service.
Sukhoi-Su-11031.jpg
 
What?
The MiG-21 is in service today, in MiG-21bison form, and in MiG-21bis form was a mainstay of many airfrces in the 80s and 90s.
The F-104 faded from service in the 80s.
The Mig-21 has been considered target practice since the late 70s by any competent Air Force. The design of its air inlet limits the size of the radar it can carry so the enemy will see it first. If it manages to survive long enough to get into dog fighting range it's horrible cockpit visibility will get it killed the second it goes on defense.
The Mig-21 is considered an economy aircraft to be used only if you can't afford a better one.
The F-104 was displaced by the F-16
 
First time I hear someone extoll the virtues of the Starfighter, lets face it without the massive Lockheed bribes it probably would go the way of the F-20 an interesting what if. One wonders why this great aircraft didn´t sweep the worthless Indian MiGs from the sky in 65 and 71
 

SsgtC

Banned
What?
The MiG-21 is in service today, in MiG-21bison form, and in MiG-21bis form was a mainstay of many airfrces in the 80s and 90s.
The F-104 faded from service in the 80s.
Key word, competitive. The MiG-21 was obsolete by the end of Vietnam. The only air forces that still fly it are ones that either can't afford anything better and fly it on the principle that something is better than nothing, or ones that aren't allowed to buy anything better due to arms controls and/or sanctions.

True first tier air forces retired the MiG-21 around the same time that the F-104 was retired. Or relegated it to second line and training duties.
 
Key word, competitive. The MiG-21 was obsolete by the end of Vietnam. The only air forces that still fly it are ones that either can't afford anything better and fly it on the principle that something is better than nothing, or ones that aren't allowed to buy anything better due to arms controls and/or sanctions.

True first tier air forces retired the MiG-21 around the same time that the F-104 was retired. Or relegated it to second line and training duties.

The closest western analogue to the post-Vietnam MiG-21 I can think of is the F-5, a basic fighter that does basic fighter things.
 
Key word, competitive. The MiG-21 was obsolete by the end of Vietnam. The only air forces that still fly it are ones that either can't afford anything better and fly it on the principle that something is better than nothing, or ones that aren't allowed to buy anything better due to arms controls and/or sanctions.

True first tier air forces retired the MiG-21 around the same time that the F-104 was retired. Or relegated it to second line and training duties.

Indeed the the key word is competitive which is why the US dropped the F-104 at the very begining of the Vietnam war
 
The Mig-21 has been considered target practice since the late 70s by any competent Air Force.

In fact great numbers of them were destroyed in Mideast combat from 1967 to 1973.

If it manages to survive long enough to get into dog fighting range it's horrible cockpit visibility will get it killed the second it goes on defense.

Not only that, its weapons were poor. The atoll AA missile wasn't much good, and some variants lacked a gun. Others were armed with a 23mm gun which wasn't very effective. Just about the only decent air combat plane in the EAF in '73 was the MIG-21F-13, with its 30mm gun.
 

Khanzeer

Banned
In fact great numbers of them were destroyed in Mideast combat from 1967 to 1973.



Not only that, its weapons were poor. The atoll AA missile wasn't much good, and some variants lacked a gun. Others were armed with a 23mm gun which wasn't very effective. Just about the only decent air combat plane in the EAF in '73 was the MIG-21F-13, with its 30mm gun.
BUT THE vietnamese and indians performed much better than the egyptians with similar weapons
may the blame lies more with the EAF than with the fishbed
 

Khanzeer

Banned
I think 1 on 1 comparisons between fighters are inherently flawed
but this thread was a little different , lets assume
in 1973 arab-israeli war
EAF and syAF had the huge numbers of f-104 as they had fishbeds in the OTL and the israelis had mig-21 rather than the Mirages
How would these fishbed vs starfighter encounter would have ended ?
lets assume AA2 atolls with israelis and Aim-9 with arab states
 
I think 1 on 1 comparisons between fighters are inherently flawed
but this thread was a little different , lets assume
in 1973 arab-israeli war
EAF and syAF had the huge numbers of f-104 as they had fishbeds in the OTL and the israelis had mig-21 rather than the Mirages
How would these fishbed vs starfighter encounter would have ended ?
lets assume AA2 atolls with israelis and Aim-9 with arab states

Shouldn't that be the other way around with Missiles? I don't see why a Mig-21 type in USAF service is suddenly using Soviet made missiles.
 
Key word, competitive. The MiG-21 was obsolete by the end of Vietnam. The only air forces that still fly it are ones that either can't afford anything better and fly it on the principle that something is better than nothing, or ones that aren't allowed to buy anything better due to arms controls and/or sanctions.

True first tier air forces retired the MiG-21 around the same time that the F-104 was retired. Or relegated it to second line and training duties.
The MiG 21bis was a competitive fighter until it had to face F16s, and was in service in large number in major AF until the 80s.
To be fair, the F16/F15 generation made all other fighters obsolete
 

SsgtC

Banned
The MiG 21bis was a competitive fighter until it had to face F16s, and was in service in large number in major AF until the 80s.
To be fair, the F16/F15 generation made all other fighters obsolete
It was in service with major air forces until the 80s. In second line or training roles. The MiG-21 was not considered a front line fighter by the Soviets by the end of the Vietnam war. Even in Vietnam, it only did as well as it did because of the ROEs American pilots were forced to operate under.
 
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