WI: American civilizations comparable to Rome

What if Columbus discover very sophisticated civilizations in the Americas, comparable to Rome in organization and technology? Don't know when the POD would be, possibly the North American horse doesn't go extinct.

Europeans would still be more advanced and have all the killer diseases. IOW they have guns and germs, but steel is not exclusively theirs.
 
One way to get that happening might be a colony of some ancient civilization rooted in the americas. Roman, Cathagan, Minoan, Tartessian, etc.

While the colony itself could be absorbed by the americans, if they last long enough, some ideas can take root. Metal weapons, sails, corn, the wheel etc.
 

Hendryk

Banned
What if Columbus discover very sophisticated civilizations in the Americas, comparable to Rome in organization and technology?
I have no idea about how to get there, but as for the results, the European approach to the Americas would probably resemble that to Asia. The smaller and/or less organized kingdoms would be taken over as vassal states, and the bigger ones would be the focus of diplomatic emulation for trading rights and missionary activity. Over time, as they gain a firmer foothold, European powers would start to play local polities against one another to extend their influence. Assuming the industrial revolution takes place more or less on schedule, by the 19th century most of the Americas save the odd lucky country would be colonies of Europe, but only those territories devoid of sedentary presence would be opened for settlement.
 
As for the result, Hendryk is right on. The only possible difference would be the effect of disease. It is possible that the native civilizations would undergo considerable stress, population loss and even partial collapse as a result of plagues. This might create local conflicts and collapses into which Europeans insinuate themselves much more quickly and thoroughly than in India and China.

I also tend to agree with Umbral that, for native american civilizations to have reached the level of technological development and political organization of the Roman Empire when Columbus arrives, there would probably have had to have been some trans-atlantic or trans-pacific contacts to allow the spread of eurasian animal husbandry, iron metalurgy, and possibly even some old world ideologies. This creates its own butterflies. It might minimize the impacts of disease in the 1500's. Perhaps there would be some dim knowledge that there was "a new world" in Europe or Asia, creating earlier voyages of exploration. Perhaps the new world civilizations, knowing that traders came from accross the sea from Phonecia, China, or wherever would themselves adopt maritime technologies and be the ones making the contact. An interesting speculation might be what the effect would be on Europe if some sword-wielding, horse riding Aztec "cortez" landed in Spain - even if he represented a civilization well-behind 1500's europe.
 
the European approach to the Americas would probably resemble that to Asia. The smaller and/or less organized kingdoms would be taken over as vassal states, and the bigger ones would be the focus of diplomatic emulation for trading rights and missionary activity.

European states became major powers in Asia after they colonized the New World and benefited from its riches. Without easily exploitable territories to upset the global balance of power. Would a renaissance Europe be able to dominate a Romanesque New World?
 
There is a book by Jared Diamond called "Guns, Germs and Steel" about how the environment had a considerable influence on the fates of civilizations. The problem that Native Americans had to face is in fact quite simple: as the hunter-gatherers entered the Americas from Central Asia and Siberia, they began to kill off several species of large mammals, which they could therefore no longer domesticate afterwards. If I am not mistaken, there is evidence according to which horses had lived in northern America prior to their arrival...
Diamond has argued that corn was more difficult to change into a edible plant than wheat. However, I have read in a scientific publication that this was not necessarily so, and that as a consequence, corn could have become a substantial food resource earlier.
If the Indians had been more cautious about preserving those natural resources, who knows what might have happened in the Americas?
 
There is a book by Jared Diamond called "Guns, Germs and Steel" about how the environment had a considerable influence on the fates of civilizations. The problem that Native Americans had to face is in fact quite simple: as the hunter-gatherers entered the Americas from Central Asia and Siberia, they began to kill off several species of large mammals, which they could therefore no longer domesticate afterwards. If I am not mistaken, there is evidence according to which horses had lived in northern America prior to their arrival...

My original post makes reference to this point. Which is why I said the horse doesn't go extinct in TTL. The horse actually originated from the Americas and crossed into Eurasia via the Bering Strait. They subsequently went extinct in their native continent. It's not known why this happened. Some say over hunting, but it could as well be a host of other reasons.

When the horse was reintroduced to North America by the Spaniards, some Native American tribes still recalled them from ancient legends. They said "the grass remembered them".
 
I doubt Horses are really the thing youre looking for tallwingedgoat. I would suggets an earlier domestication of corn sometime around 2000 BC. Perhaps then we might get a civilization comparable to republican Rome in terms of technology, especially if we were to say put the devolpment of the sail on the fast track for mesoamerican and/or Andeans. An earlier spread of agriculture into North America might also help.

Considering that 70-80% of the Native American population is likely to die (without European invasion and rule mind you)I tihnk that Europeans would still conquer the Americas, just less in the fell swoops we saw Spain having. Its much more likely to a slow and steady conwuest by vassal and with small settlements.
 
Umm would not North America develop its own diseases if it had roman tech places due to the agriculture and things like this.

you might see europeans dying from new world disease and the new world dying from old world diseases
 
Umm would not North America develop its own diseases if it had roman tech places due to the agriculture and things like this.

you might see Europeans dying from new world disease and the new world dying from old world diseases
It is possible that syphilis originated in the Americas, but that is now called into question. The main reason the Americas would probably lack diseases is the lack of domesticated animals. Something like 60-70% of all diseases originate in animals first, most of those being domesticated. The Americas had 4 domesticated animals: The llama, the guinea pig, the turkey, and the dog versus something around 10-11 domesticated animals in the Old World. I would view the guinea pig and the llama are the animals most likely to create disease due to there ancestors(rodents and camelids have created quite a few diseases) and their likely commonness in any households in America with Mexican and Peruvian contact.
 
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