WI: Alternate Partition of India

What if at Partition, there was a larger Pakistan where the Indian Punjab (basically the Indian states of Punjab and Haryana in OTL) and Kashmir are given to Pakistan but East Bengal (the part which became Bangladesh) becomes part of India instead? How does this affect the two countries?
 
Well Pakistan now has a large Sikh and Hindu population in the Punjab, but getting all of Kashmir is a bonus. There will be communal rioting in the Punjab, a Sikh insurgency against the Pakistani state, and ethnic cleansing of Hindus and Sikhs from the Punjab and Kashmir.

India now has a large Bengali Muslim minority concentrated in East Bengal. Expect communal rioting throughout East and West Bengal, and a Bengali Muslim (Bangladeshi) insurgency against the Indian state and Indian Govt repression in East Bengal like in IOTL Kashmir.

(On a personal note, given my Bangladeshi background, I'd likely be an insurgent fighting against the Indian Army, dead, jailed and tortured by Indian soldiers, or living in a squalid refugee camp in Burma or Pakistan. Yay.)
 
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Partition gets a whole lot worse. Delhi would suddenly border Pakistan. And Himachal Pradesh becomes increasingly hard to hold on to.
 
All of the largest princely states East of Lahore were having pro-Indian rulers at the time of the Partition and they wouldn't have in any plausible way desired to go with Pakistan and anyway the population was thoroughly favoring accession to India. And I don't think that Kashmir will be defiantly kept independent by Hari Singh just to have it overrun by the Pakistani sponsored tribal (comprising of some Pakistani irregulars too disguised as tribals) invasion ; because that's what got him to accede to India in OTL. And keeping East Bengal within India wouldn't have been far fetched to achieve as anyway India wasn't going to treat Muslims like enemies and just like any ordinary citizen of India, unlike the way Hindus are treated as second class citizens in Bangladesh nowadays and are highly discriminated against for no reason whatsoever.
 
Why do you have to have a united India? - some of the princely states wanted to remain independent.
 

What right you have to say our PM a fascist? What has he done to gain this slight?

Do you even know what were the reasons for the Gujarat riots?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Gujarat_riots

What had those innocent Karsevaks done to be burnt alive in a train? And I don't support the eventual riots anyway, but I believe that you are supporting your fellow religious kin for the violence they perpetrated against those poor souls.

https://themuslimissue.wordpress.co...-million-hindus-and-raped-200000-hindu-women/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombay_riots

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mappila_riots

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1927_Nagpur_riots

And first read properly the contents in the link I have highlighted, that you yourself have provided.

And what of the violence that your Muslim ghazis perpetrated against Hindus all the centuries starting from the first Arab Invasion in the 8th century?

What of the desecration of th the Somnath Mandir? What about the desecration of the Srirangam temple? What of the destruction of the Ram Mandir in Ayodhya where the ex-Babri Masjid used to stand at the orders of Babur? What of the vandalization of innumerable Hindu temples across India by Muhammad Ghori, Aurangzeb, the Sultans of Delhi and many other Muslim rulers across India? What of the audacity of the Nawab of Junagadh to force his 85 % Hindu majority Muslim population to join with Pakistan against their wishes? What of the Hindus still facing discrimination in Bangladesh? What of the innumerable atrocities that Hindus have faced at the hands of Muslims over the years?
And do not pretend to deny the religious violence directed against Hindus by the Islamic fundamentalists in your country, as numerous Hindus are reported to be fleeing from Bangladesh to our country almost every year.

Well I'm not in any way an Islamophobic. I respect your religious beliefs and such. And I would love to see harmony between all the religions present in India. But the way you are speaking here seems that you hate other religions except your own and especially you target your hatred towards Hindus.

And you have no right to hurl insults at our Prime Minister. By doing so you are insulting the opinions of the people of India, because we are the ones who put him in his position. And I believe you should care more about Bangladesh, your home country. The amounts in which Bangladeshis are streaming to India each year (believe
me I live not far where your countrymen illegally stay in our country) I don't think that your
Government is not doing a good job at keeping your own people in the country by ensuring equal opportunities to them.
 
So, how do you think would a fully-Pakistani Punjab and a fully-Indian Bengal affect the development of both countries in your opinion?
 
What right you have to say our PM a fascist? What has he done to gain this slight?

Do you even know what were the reasons for the Gujarat riots?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Gujarat_riots

What had those innocent Karsevaks done to be burnt alive in a train? And I don't support the eventual riots anyway, but I believe that you are supporting your fellow religious kin for the violence they perpetrated against those poor souls.

https://themuslimissue.wordpress.co...-million-hindus-and-raped-200000-hindu-women/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombay_riots

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mappila_riots

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1927_Nagpur_riots

And first read properly the contents in the link I have highlighted, that you yourself have provided.

And what of the violence that your Muslim ghazis perpetrated against Hindus all the centuries starting from the first Arab Invasion in the 8th century?

What of the desecration of th the Somnath Mandir? What about the desecration of the Srirangam temple? What of the destruction of the Ram Mandir in Ayodhya where the ex-Babri Masjid used to stand at the orders of Babur? What of the vandalization of innumerable Hindu temples across India by Muhammad Ghori, Aurangzeb, the Sultans of Delhi and many other Muslim rulers across India? What of the audacity of the Nawab of Junagadh to force his 85 % Hindu majority Muslim population to join with Pakistan against their wishes? What of the Hindus still facing discrimination in Bangladesh? What of the innumerable atrocities that Hindus have faced at the hands of Muslims over the years?
And do not pretend to deny the religious violence directed against Hindus by the Islamic fundamentalists in your country, as numerous Hindus are reported to be fleeing from Bangladesh to our country almost every year.

Well I'm not in any way an Islamophobic. I respect your religious beliefs and such. And I would love to see harmony between all the religions present in India. But the way you are speaking here seems that you hate other religions except your own and especially you target your hatred towards Hindus.

And you have no right to hurl insults at our Prime Minister. By doing so you are insulting the opinions of the people of India, because we are the ones who put him in his position. And I believe you should care more about Bangladesh, your home country. The amounts in which Bangladeshis are streaming to India each year (believe
me I live not far where your countrymen illegally stay in our country) I don't think that your
Government is not doing a good job at keeping your own people in the country by ensuring equal opportunities to them.

Are you for real? When did I say I support Muslim violence against Hindus? Never, I condemn it, contemporary and historical. It's disgusting, as all forms of religious/communal violence is disgusting. Stop trying to paint me as an Islamist fanatic (I'm actually an atheist but that's none of your business). And obviously I'm no fan of Pakistan either, my family fought against them for our independence in 1971. Of course Hindus have been - and continue to be - horribly mistreated in Bangladesh and Pakistan. I never denied that. But Muslims continue to be horribly mistreated in India too, which you can't seem to admit. That's the nature of the communal/sectarian/religious conflict of the Subcontinent that's been going on for thousands of years. It's horrible and shameful, but it's reality. I wish the people of the Subcontinent would move past their communal religious identities and stop killing each other over it, but it appears they won't for the foreseeable future. Very sad.

I was refuting your truly laughable statement that East Bengal would be peaceably integrated into India and that Muslims are treated like any other citizens, by pointing out the widespread social discrimination and relentless series of pogroms that Muslims have faced in India since 1947, not to mention the ongoing bleeding sore that is Kashmir.

And Modi is a fascist because he rose through the ranks of a paramilitary Hindutva organisation - the RSS - specifically inspired by the Italian Blackshirts and German Brownshirts. They even wear the same type of brown uniforms ffs.
 
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If Modi is a fascist, why aren't the leadership of the Indian National Congress and the Communist Parties in India (along with the other opposition parties to the BJP) being herded into concentration camps?
 
If Modi is a fascist, why aren't the leadership of the Indian National Congress and the Communist Parties in India (along with the other opposition parties to the BJP) being herded into concentration camps?

Because he's not a Mussolini/Hitler level fascist.

But fine, if you think me using the term "fascist" to describe him is too emotive, it would be more accurate to describe him as a democratically elected, yet authoritarian, right-wing Hindu nationalist pro-pogrom populist. But the organisation that facilitated his rise to power - the RSS - is explicitly fascist.

This is what the RSS looks like btw. Their founder specifically drew on the Blackshirts and SA as an inspiration. And their members have been at the forefront of every communal pogrom against Muslims (and Sikhs in 1983) since independence. A former RSS member also assassinated Gandhi.

RashtriyaSwayamsevakSangh.jpg
 
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Because he's not a Mussolini/Hitler level fascist.

But fine, if you think me using the term "fascist" to describe him is too emotive, it would be more accurate to describe him as a democratically elected, yet authoritarian, right-wing Hindu nationalist pro-pogrom populist.

This is what the RSS looks like btw.

RashtriyaSwayamsevakSangh.jpg

Yup you are right. And I agree that my statement about the peaceful integration of East Bengal might have been a little too hopeful. And basically the RSS organizes people for self defense and for the defense of co - religionists (Hindus) and was founded founded in the wake of the increasing attacks against Hindus in the pre - independence period. And I don't think there is nothing wrong if the people of a particular religion get organized for self defense. And as such I have not heard about any RSS activist beating up any Muslim or other religionist for no reason whatsoever.

It's right that BJP origins lie in the RSS and many of its leaders have been past members of RSS and also that RSS has been quite vocal on its political views but I myself haven't found anything saying that the RSS actively tries to spread hatred about Muslims or something like that. And I don't think that openly taking pride in your own religion is tantamount to showing hatred towards other religions. And thats what the RSS does ;taking pride in the religion they believe in and working for its strengthening. Though not strangling other religions in the process.
 
Yup you are right. And I agree that my statement about the peaceful integration of East Bengal might have been a little too hopeful. And basically the RSS organizes people for self defense and for the defense of co - religionists (Hindus) and was founded founded in the wake of the increasing attacks against Hindus in the pre - independence period. And I don't think there is nothing wrong if the people of a particular religion get organized for self defense. And as such I have not heard about any RSS activist beating up any Muslim or other religionist for no reason whatsoever.

It's right that BJP origins lie in the RSS and many of its leaders have been past members of RSS and also that RSS has been quite vocal on its political views but I myself haven't found anything saying that the RSS actively tries to spread hatred about Muslims or something like that. And I don't think that openly taking pride in your own religion is tantamount to showing hatred towards other religions. And thats what the RSS does ;taking pride in the religion they believe in and working for its strengthening. Though not strangling other religions in the process.

The RSS doesn't spread hatred of Muslims? It was founded on an anti-Muslim platform. Gawalkar identified Muslims as the enemy, (and praised the Nazis for "removing their Semitic elements - Jews", and encouraged Hindus to do the same against Muslims). It's just a "self defence group"? What does launching pogroms against Muslim civilians for 50 years have to with self defence? Lynch mobs are not self defence. What's this "no reason" line - the RSS have consistently been involved in every major pogrom in modern Indian history; they claim provocation and lash out at innocent Muslim civilians through rioting. Burning down Muslim neighbourhoods in response to terrorism, or even more absurdly "beef eating", is not self defence. "Taking pride in your religion" is not the same as marching around in Brownshirts while pushing an aggressively sectarian agenda of religious nationalism, enforced by communal violence. That's thuggery.
 
Doesn't one such area exist in Bangladesh?
According to wiki, most of the Buddhists in Bangladesh live in the Chittadong district. Even then, it apparently has more mosques and Hindu temples than Buddhist temples.

I suppose Sikkim could be a Buddhist majority independent state, given that they were an Indian protectorate until 1975. Hell, there is already Sri Lanka and Bhutan, so perhaps there could've been a Sikkim state.
 

longsword14

Banned
All the above arguments showcase wonderfully the problems of modern India. Now, granted it may look like everything is going to hell but that is the standard situation. Modi is a Hindu nationalist but he is not a fool. Note that the RSS was an important tool for promotion throughout India, but he has tried to keep them as far away from his platform as possible. This is despite the fact that Modi was an RSS cadre.
There is no party that does not use secularism in every possible way as a political dog-whistle. The reason the political scenario seems far more stable than it should be is the fact that major strife happened in the partition, killing a lot of people and displacing enough Muslims so that they cannot attain critical mass.
@Emperor of Greater India , cool down a little bit :). You can show easily how Modi is hardly Hitler, and the Hindu-Muslim problem is far too political, with every party's fingers in the pie. BJP has learnt how to play more cleverly.

Back to the point, getting an independent Punjab is really not possible. It is Muslim dominated on the current Pakistani side, with the Indian side populated by Sikhs. Khalistan was not on the cards with no real reason and no leaders.
Buddhism in Bengal had been devastated post Khilji's invasion centuries ago. Where Buddhism lost its grip, it never got it back being so heavily dependent on monks and scholars.
Only if the national movement is weaker, or stupid demands for extremely uniform standards of language and culture are made, which is not really possible or the British diplomatic efforts are different could any princely state have meaningful existence in the union. Despite the clause about join India, Pakistan or leave, there wasn't any real drive from Britain to really allow for independent kingdoms. Patel and Mennon handled te rest.

And please, remain calm. Know that even RSS members can think (sometimes) clearly. I would know, as I used to be a member of RSS myself.:cool:
 

longsword14

Banned
What I hate most is the fact that they warp the curriculum of students being taught in school. Murali Manohar Joshi was a useless person for any useful post. Hindu nationalism would always show its head somehow, with the tinge of partition and illiteracy still widespread. I hope that it would moderate itself in the future.

@Cregan , the scenario you have given is simply not possible. Pakistan would never want to have Punjab which now resides in India, if they insist on doing so there would be war. Patel would never, ever allow such a concentrated muslim area (East Pakistan) into India. Note that Kashmir was actually not on the plate either. Patel, at best, wanted to keep it hanging in the balance to force Pakistan away from engaging in stupid shit like separation of Junagarh and Hyderabad (today mostly in Andhra). Not that they would have survived as they were being surrounded completely by Indian territories.
Kashmir came to be as it is because of the 1948 clash, with Patel finally asking : ' Jawaharlal,do you want Kashmir, or do you want to give it away?' Any Indian leader would not allow Jammu, Ladakh to fall way to Pakistan.

Talking of Patel, he was a proud Hindu, yet he understood political realities and worked sensibly. He was the force behind reconstruction of Somnath.
I really wish that BJP would actually follow his path in reality and not merely use him on special days and rallies.

PS : Is being a member of RSS an insta-ban offence?
 
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