WI: Alternate Orders of Knighthood To Survive

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Kellan Sullivan, Jan 27, 2018.

  1. Kellan Sullivan Well-Known Member

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    I've been browsing the internet and come across several fascinating medieval orders of chivalry that sadly didn't survive the lifetime of their founder. This list is incomplete, I'm sure

    Plus:

    Some of them have been revived (like the Elephant or the Thistle (supposedly)), but the majority of them have fallen by the wayside and been forgotten by even wikipedia. Others have been "reinvented as charitable orders - Society of our Lady of Brandenburg, for instance.

    So, which of these would be likely/coolest to have survive, and how could we do it?
     
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  2. The Professor Pontifex Collegii Vexillographiariorum

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    I think one of the first 3 Edwards briefly created the Order of the Round Table due to the Arthur legend regaining popularity. Possibly I or III.
    Order of the Dragon would be a cool one to remain. Though the Order of the Croissant is good for a snicker ;)
     
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  3. Kellan Sullivan Well-Known Member

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    My personal favourite is the Order of the Porcupine.

    Didn't Joseph Bonaparte try to revive the Order of the Croissant during his tenure in Naples? I seem to remember reading about it, he either did or wanted to but Napoléon dismissed it as "too Turkish" or "too whatever". So, Joseph founded an entirely new order
     
  4. Kellan Sullivan Well-Known Member

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    Reviving this thread in the hopes of more suggestions for alternate surviving orders.
     
  5. RGB Unqueering the Academia

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    Combine that, the Ourdre de la Pomme d'Or (Auvergne 1394), a bit of ham and a slice of cheese and you have yourself a good breakfast.

    Thereby I suggest the addition of the fictional Order of the Boar and the Order of the Knights from the Pays de Brie.

    To be served with a good glass of St. Hubertus Orden.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2019
  6. Byzantion Well-Known Member

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    Knights of Malta becoming a protectorate of some greater power while remaining an independent state.Maybe they somehow avoid Napoleon's conquest or even become a protectorate of Britain ( maybe for strategic reasons ) a remain a knight-order state until after 1900.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2019
  7. Kellan Sullivan Well-Known Member

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    I think if they'd put themselves under the protectorate of a Catholic power for the duration of the war - but then how to re-assert their independence after Vienna, since any power strong enough to scare off France is likely going to be strong enough to try and keep Malta.
     
  8. Byzantion Well-Known Member

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    Thats right, Spain had been a shadow of her former self. Anglican Britain may annex Malta instantly. Austria had a Mediterranian fleet but they are not strog enough. A Restauration France may be a reasonable protector, but then its to late. A Restauration Post Vienna Re-Assertion could work , maybe with the Intervention of the Pope ? Don' t know if the Pope of early 19th Century would a Knight-order Malta being protected by Restauration powers but would be interesting If they give a guarantee not to attack or annex Malta.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2019
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  9. Kellan Sullivan Well-Known Member

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    Has any one else found the names amusing "Jar", "Tress", "Scale" etc.? I get that these probably (like the jar or maybe the scale) where abbreviations for stuff like "Our Lady of the Jar" or something, but can you imagine telling someone who doesn't know their knighthoods that "I'm a knight." Really? "Yeah, of the Order of the Jar"
     
  10. dannythegreat Well-Known Member

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    Can you imagine telling someone who doesn't know their knightly orders that you're a Knight of the Garter?
     
  11. Kellan Sullivan Well-Known Member

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    or of the Bath
     
  12. Geordie NAME OF OWNER

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    I did an undergraduate presentation on chivalric orders at one stage in my degree. I should see if I still have a copy.

    If we look at the list of those that collapsed (some of which are more confaternities than orders, to be pedantic), there are several different reasons.

    The Star, for instance: a French rival to Edward III's Garter, was shafted by most of its brotherhood (and the king himself) taking a beating at Poitiers. Ironic, seeing as part of the reason it was set up was to restore matial and chivalric pride after Crecy. Several other order - some of the Neapolitan ones, the Breton order of the Ermine - were doomed by the fall of the state or dynasty ruling the state. Then, others were aspirational. The Croissant, which has been touched on for humorous reasons (as I did in my presentation) was set up by René of Anjou, but not in his capacity as Duke of Anjou. He was once and currently titular king of Naples, and the Crescent was his clique of loyal supporters who would be his most trusted advisors when he reclaimed his throne. The problem being that he never managed it.

    The easiest way of keeping some of the orders going is to look at the reasons for decline, and halt/prevent them. Change the Habsburg inheritances, and they may be awarding the Jar today, rather than the Fleece. A surviving French monarchy probably means a surviving order of Saint Michael.
     
  13. Kellan Sullivan Well-Known Member

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    Is there a way that something like the Breton order of the Ermine, or the Neapolitan orders of the Knot or the Ship, could be incorporated into the French chivalric orders - sort of like the Thistle was incorporated into the British (for the Ermine and Croissant) or a Neapolitan, rather than a dynastic order (since both the Knot and the Ship seem to have had brief lifespans, which makes me wonder if they were coupled to a specific monarch rather than a dynasty).

    The Castilian order of the Sash is also interesting, since the date when it goes extinct is with Enrique IV's death, which makes me wonder if it either fell into disrepute or picked the wrong side in the Castilian War of Succession. Same goes for the Hungarian Order of the Dragon. It seems to have died with Matyas Corvinus.

    Also, is there anyway that any of these orders could be revived - à la Bath and Elephant - at a later point? Perhaps during the War of the Spanish Succession, Karl VI revives the Order of the Jar (since AFAIK, the Borbon kings of Spain continued to issue the Order of the Golden Fleece as a Spanish, rather than a Habsburg order) for his Aragonese supporters. He still loses the war but takes the order back to Austria with him where it becomes an Austrian order.
     
  14. Kellan Sullivan Well-Known Member

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    I'm curious. The first Irish order of knighthood was the Saint Patrick established in the 18th century. Could Henry VIII (when the kingdom of Ireland is established) - or perhaps one of his children - create an order of knighthood for the Irish (sort of on an equal footing with the Garter, but either limited to Irishmen or those who had served in Ireland?)
     
  15. Kellan Sullivan Well-Known Member

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    Would an "independent" Ireland or an Ireland with a better relationship with England (i.e. that both sides of the Irish Sea remain Catholic, for instance - although I know althistory seems to have a favourite chestnut that if England stays Catholic, both Ireland and Scotland would go Protestant - how likely this is I don't know) have a higher chance of having earlier orders of knighthood coupled with it?
     
  16. krieger Well-Known Member

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    There is one order, whose survival would be borderline ASB, but the effects would be quite interesting. Conrad I of Mazovia, a Polish duke from the time of feudal fragmentation founded in 1216 (with the help of Bishop Christian of Oliwa) an order called "Fratres Milites Christi" (The Brotherhood of Soldiers of Jesus Christ) with the target of subjugating and baptizing Prussians alongside with TO. TO was more effective, so Fratres Milites Christi (called knights of Dobrzyń, due to receiving Dobrzyń land from Conrad I) ceased to exist. But if they didn't the outcome would be quite odd. Unlike TO, this wasn't a exclusivelly German (although created by Germans) order. It's last grand master was a Pole - Henry of Żygocin. So if they somehow achieved success comparable to TO OTL (which is borderline ASB) we could even see Poland reunited by order of knighthood. @Jan Olbracht
     
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  17. Jan Olbracht Well-Known Member

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    To achieve TO's success such order would need to attract such number of German volunteers and get support of the Emperor, so it would not be much different from OTL TO.
    Perhaps Order could take different path and could be tool of monarch of reunited Poland instead of conqueror of Polish lands
     
  18. krieger Well-Known Member

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    It'd be more balanced between German and Polish than OTL TO was. If the relationship with dukes of Mazovia is close and non-Germans aren't prohibited for holding positions in Order than we could see a Piast duke becoming Grand Master.
     
  19. Byzantion Well-Known Member

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    The Teutonic order reinvented itself as Prussia.
     
  20. Kellan Sullivan Well-Known Member

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    Any others (besides the FMC that @krieger mentioned) who could do the same? Didn't another Ansbach prince try to do the same with the Livonian Order. Or how Kettler wound up with Courland?
    I don't expect a shitload of knighthood-turned-kingdoms in Europe (particularly western Europe), but it makes for interesting thought.