WI: Alternate Columbus landing spots
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- columbus conact the americas
John Fredrick Parker
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Alternatively, there is no Columbus, but the equivalent expedition is done by someone who actually knows how big the earth is, and so "discovers" America farther north (eg Newfoundland). In time, subsequent explorers sail up the St Lawrence or down the east coast looking for the passage west, and so the wealthier native nations aren't discovered until decades after OTL.
He had a fairly good idea of how far it was. He didn't starve at least.
John Fredrick Parker
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He didn't know America was there, that's why he thought he was in the Indies.
That is correct, and if I have this right I think he thought the Norse had reached Siberia and estimated a similar distance.
I've read some arguments that his idea of the world's size was to support evidence in favor of his trip, not that he actually believed it was that small.
There's definitely a possibility of that. He was in all accounts a slippery guy.
John Fredrick Parker
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At any rate, what happens if Columbus doesn't sail, and a different kingdom (say England) gives a different explorer the backing to sail west along the northern Atlantic (a la Cabot)? How successful are these first expeditions, in terms of getting the lay of the land, of setting up settlements, etc? What is the economic potential of the northeast (Newfoundland, the St Lawrence valley, etc) compared with that of the Caribbean? If they're based on trade of things like furs and timber (and just looking to get a foothold to sail further), are the representatives of Europe less exploitative/enslaving-genocidal of the native nations? And given this dynamic, how does European exploration of the Americas go down?
Speaking of which, if I might ask an ecology / native american agriculture question -- did Tobacco plants grow in the farther northeast (like as far as the Iroquois Confederacy)? If so, our early explorers TTL are quite likely to run into the drug, and might introduce it to Europe decades ahead of OTL.
Speaking of which, if I might ask an ecology / native american agriculture question -- did Tobacco plants grow in the farther northeast (like as far as the Iroquois Confederacy)? If so, our early explorers TTL are quite likely to run into the drug, and might introduce it to Europe decades ahead of OTL.
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Tobacco was grown as far north as Connecticut.
New World initial colonization by a northern route, without Iberian participation would be based at first on the bounty of animal products, fish and furs. In the early decades, such colonization could be very gradual and small-scale and non-domineering over the natives. The question becomes as religious strife really heats up in northern Europe in the 1500s and 1600s, do we see the beginning of mass family based settlement anyway?
That's one question. The other question would be if the pace of navigation to figure how to get *around* this landmass would be any slower than OTL. If it is not, you could have a largely convergent TL.
New World initial colonization by a northern route, without Iberian participation would be based at first on the bounty of animal products, fish and furs. In the early decades, such colonization could be very gradual and small-scale and non-domineering over the natives. The question becomes as religious strife really heats up in northern Europe in the 1500s and 1600s, do we see the beginning of mass family based settlement anyway?
That's one question. The other question would be if the pace of navigation to figure how to get *around* this landmass would be any slower than OTL. If it is not, you could have a largely convergent TL.
Answering the OP-
Lesser Antilles - maybe identical results or maybe Columbus and crew get eaten by Caribs
Florida or Georgia - higher chance of Columbus and crew getting killed. If they succeed and Columbus advertises his discovery well, Spain would almost surely control much further up the Atlantic coast, to the Chesapeake or Manhattan.
Bermuda- the crew is unimpressed, mutinies and fails to get back
Jamaica - identical to OTL
Yucatan - similar to OTL or more likely to get killed by a warlike group and not make it back. If Columbus survives to bring back a good report and the Spaniards are as aggressive ever after, there's a *chance* the conquest and exploitation of Mexico is acccelerated.
Planet of Hats
Donor
The Brazil route. Just have the Portuguese get blown off course while trying to skirt the Bight of Benin.
That happened OTL
God, the Caribbean is deadly.
If they landed in the Lesser Antilles it would make the chance of getting to Guyana first much more likely.
John Fredrick Parker
Donor
Ah, so seeing as the first voyage is likely to reach Newfoundland, and either go west into the St Lawrence or south to Nova Scotia, they're not likely to run into the weed in the earliest settlements.
This is about what I'm thinking too; it won't be super-profitable for the Europeans at first, so the going will be slower, but it will be beneficial enough to maintain a presence in the area, with friendlier (or "friendlier") relations. If the first voyage does make it to Nova Scotia, that means the Wabanaki Confederacy (who have allied tribes as far south as most of OTL Maine) will be major partners, or victims, or both. Meanwhile, I would be surprised if they've even made it as far as the southern tip of Flordia within the first decade, meaning not only do they still think the route to Asia is just around the corner (unlike OTL, where Amerigo figured out the size of the landmass in 1502) but the Caribbean remains un-ravaged, with the Europeans barely aware of their existence, much less how to make them profitable. Oh, and the great civilizations of the Mississippi, Mesoamerica, and what not, have yet still to make contact with these Europeans.
That's a good question. I will say, speaking of which, that religious strife will most certainly still happen, though it may look very different from OTL (or similar, if you think in broad enough strokes).
You guys are overlooking the Cod from the Grand Banks and the furs that could have been had in modern day Canadian Maritimes and New England (those furs in New England helped keep the settlers there going economically for some time too), plus of course whales
Florida had actual cannibals according to this book
https://www.amazon.com/Cannibalism-Headhunting-Human-Sacrifice-America/dp/0911469338
The Spanish colonization efforts in Florida and Georgia really had a tough time
Yucatan has the Maya, who are going to be relatively hostile
yeah, Bermuda isn't going to be worth much (and considering the reefs and all, might end up wrecking all three ships)
Jamaica and the Lesser Antilles seem likely to not provide any significant changes to OTL
Speaking of the Maya, I know it actually took a long time, until the mid or late 1600s, for the Spanish to defeat all the Mayan Kingdoms. Is there a plausible way for a Maya polity to survive with aid from the Netherlands, France or England?
Most of the Maya were conquered in a fairly nasty guerilla war in the 1500s; the more remote areas held out longer, but a lot of that was by not seeming to be worth the expense of conquest (the land was poor and the Yucatan in general something of a backwater by the time the Spanish showed up, so few would-be conquistadors had any appetite for it, especially after the expensive and difficult struggle for the rest of the Yucatan had proven so unprofitable for its conquerors). Making deals with other nations moves those remote realms up from "not worth bothering with" to "potential threat; better squash them now," and they aren't located in places that other Europeans could send aid to easily even if they wanted to.
Didn't they expect there to be a couple islands on the way to Asia? This could be one of them.
They could use Bermuda (perhaps they'll call it Antillia, as it's rather close to where the imaginary island might be) as a port of call to relax and resupply before sailing onward. If anything, it would just extend the range of the ships and the confidence of the sailors.
Thats what Columbus thought for quite a while. His subsequent voyages were searches for the Asian mainland & Cathay he thought were a little west of the islands he scouted on the first voyage. It was others like Vespucci who grasped this was a previously unknown continent or two.
John Fredrick Parker
Donor
Fair point, though wasn't it something like 50 years after first settlement that New England started whaling? They may have started fishing Cod right away, though; then again, Portugal was already expanding Cod fishing, so it wouldn't be a fish monopoly or anything. (Furs are mentioned.)