WI alternate Burgundian succession?

A scenario that got me thinking recently was what if Charles the Bold never fell out with his Burgundian cousin John Count of Nevers and named him as his successor to the Duchies of Burgundy and the other Burgundian territories?

Maxmillian still marries Mary of Burgundy.

As John Count of Nevers dies in 1491 it means that is the earliest the Habsburgs could inherit the Burgundian territories. That is unless the Habsburgs decide to conquer the Burgundian territories anyway after Charles the Bold's death claiming Mary should get the inheritance first through the laws of succession.

Also as John Count of Nevers, heir at the time of his death was John Duke of Cleves, this would mean he would inherit the Burgundian territories upon John Count of Nevers death if the Habsburgs don't try and take them by force.

My questions are:

Would Maxmillian try and claim the territories for his wife and son anyway against the wishes of Charles the Bold in this scenario?

What is the French position in this scenario?

Would John Count of Nevers have any chance of keeping hold of the Burgundian territories?

If the Habsburgs didn't originally try to claim the territories would they try and claim them on the death of John Count of Nevers against his successor John Duke of Cleves?
 
A scenario that got me thinking recently was what if Charles the Bold never fell out with his Burgundian cousin John Count of Nevers and named him as his successor to the Duchies of Burgundy and the other Burgundian territories?

Maxmillian still marries Mary of Burgundy.

As John Count of Nevers dies in 1491 it means that is the earliest the Habsburgs could inherit the Burgundian territories. That is unless the Habsburgs decide to conquer the Burgundian territories anyway after Charles the Bold's death claiming Mary should get the inheritance first through the laws of succession.

Also as John Count of Nevers, heir at the time of his death was John Duke of Cleves, this would mean he would inherit the Burgundian territories upon John Count of Nevers death if the Habsburgs don't try and take them by force.

My questions are:

Would Maxmillian try and claim the territories for his wife and son anyway against the wishes of Charles the Bold in this scenario?

What is the French position in this scenario?

Would John Count of Nevers have any chance of keeping hold of the Burgundian territories?

If the Habsburgs didn't originally try to claim the territories would they try and claim them on the death of John Count of Nevers against his successor John Duke of Cleves?
Artois, Picardy, Burgundy, Vermandois and the Somme cities are apanages.
That means that when the male line of Burgundy goes extinct, they automatically return to the French crown.
I could see the Louis the Spider reinstoring some of the apanages to Jean de Bourgogne-Nevers so that some of the most important ones are kept in French hands. The Somme cities, notably, are too close to Paris for comfort, and getting Vermandois and Picardy with that would be a significant advantage.
 
French would surely choose John side, he was a vassal and a friend of Louis XI, but the french king would try to pofit of this situation to take few territories by the law of apanages even if he would be accommodating with John.

Concerning Mary of Burgundy even if Maximillian choose to interven he could do nothing he doesn't have enough ressources, troops, ... and many burgundians estate would choose John side he was a noble like them and will be ready to accept some autonomy for these vassal and his relation with the french would allow them to stay friend with them or the two main claim of Burgundians are peace and autonomy. So yes, John will have a lot of chance to kept these territories.

After concerning his sucessor i think that John Duke of Cleves would be popular and burgundian would not see any problem with him, all would depend his relation with the french.
 
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French would surely choose John side, he was a vassal and a friend of Louis XI, but the french king would try to pofit of this situation to take few territories by the law of apanages even if he would be accommodating with John.

Concerning Mary of Burgundy even if Maximillian choose to interven he could do nothing he doesn't have enough ressources, troops, ... and many burgundians estate would choose John side he was a noble like them and will be ready to accept some autonomy for these vassal and his relation with the french would allow them to stay friend with them or the two main claim of Burgundians are peace and autonomy. So yes, John will have a lot of chance to kept these territories.

After concerning his sucessor i think that John Duke of Cleves would be popular and burgundian would not see any problem with him, all would depend his relation with the french.

But Maxmillian's father is Holy Roman Emperor at the time and considering they are also the Dukes of Austria I'm pretty sure Maxmillian could create an army to fight for the Burgundian inheritance. He did this in OTL. He may lose the battle but I reckon he would certainly try.
 
he didn't the majority of his force were burgundians, he only come with 3000 German lansquenets making him quickly the most indebted prince (and people make loan because originally he had lot of chance of succes) of Europa and even here he received burgundian funding to help him) with 3000 men and few support he will not last and i'm not even sure that he will try because he doesn't have any legitimy and few chance of winning, he would surely try to help his father.


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the problem is that his father is already indebted and alredfy fight for the survival of his realm against Corvin
 
he didn't the majority of his force were burgundians, he only come with 3000 German lansquenets making him quickly the most indebted prince (and people make loan because originally he had lot of chance of succes) of Europa and even here he received burgundian funding to help him) with 3000 men and few support he will not last and i'm not even sure that he will try because he doesn't have any legitimy and few chance of winning, he would surely try to help his father.


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the problem is that his father is already indebted and alredfy fight for the survival of his realm against Corvin

So Maxmillian wouldn't stand a chance of claiming the Burgundian inheritance for his wife and son.

The question is what if the future Dukes of Burgundy start causing problems for France. Could there be then an unlikely circumstance where France and the Habsburgs ally to defeat the Burgundians? That is obviously incredibly unlikely. But how is France going to handle a Cleeves based Burgundy which at some point in history would likely have close ties with England?
 
The question is what if the future Dukes of Burgundy start causing problems for France. Could there be then an unlikely circumstance where France and the Habsburgs ally to defeat the Burgundians? That is obviously incredibly unlikely. But how is France going to handle a Cleeves based Burgundy which at some point in history would likely have close ties with England?

An alliance is possible, but Hasburg ITTL will be totally different of Habsburg OTL, because they used burgundian wealth and were lucky in inheritance to expand and form their empire, so these habsburg will be surely weaker, if Cleeve seek an alliance with England they will surely fight against each other and so France would likely seek help, (Swiss, Habsburg, ...)
 
John II of Burgundy-Cleves 1477-1481
France and the Holy Roman Empire took a sigh of relief when Charles the Bold died and recognized quickly the new Duke. John II renounced Charles's claims against France and authorized the marriage between Mary of Burgundy, only daughter of Charles, with Maximilian of Hapsburg, two moves to assure pacification with the main rivals of Burgundy.
John III of Burgundy-Cleves 1481-1521
Called "the Babymaker" for his numerous illegitimate children (sixty-three!), he took advantage to consolidated his power while France and the Hapsburg turned their attention on Italy. Ultimately he decided to ally with the Empire against France.
John IV of Burgundy-Cleves 1521-1539
He was famous for his tolerance with Protestants, although he was always a loyal Catholic, and his protection for Erasmus of Rotterdam.
William I of Burgundy-Cleves 1539-
The first Lutheran to became Duke of Burgundy, he caused a strong reactions from Catholics. Emperor Charles V couldn't allow a Protestant Burgundy, worst of all allied with the Schmalkaldic League headed by John Frederick of Saxony, married with Sibylle, first daughter of John IV and sister of William I. A war quickly started with Charles who claimed the Burgundian Crown due his descendence from Mary of Burgundy.
From here there are some possibilities:
- Charles wins the war and takes Burgundy, History continued as we know.
- William wins and when his son Julian dies in 1609 the Crown passes to Hapsburgs or to a Hohenzollern Branch.
- William dies fighting in the war before having children:
-his sister Sibylle is able to take the throne, creating a superstate leaded by a couple of fanatic Protestant.
- Sibylle is excluded due her staunch Protestantism and the Crown goes to her sister Anne, a Catholic. She can marry Francis of Lorraine and build a strong dukedom in Rhineland or can marry Henry VIII of England as in OTL. Their son or daughter could inherit one day a powerful English-Burgundian Kingdom.
 
Anne and Francis would be good and playing with little to none butterflies (who is impossible as Charles VIII of France here will surely marry differently) Ferdinand as more than enough children for a wedding alliance with Burgundy-Lorraine
 
French would surely choose John side, he was a vassal and a friend of Louis XI, but the french king would try to pofit of this situation to take few territories by the law of apanages even if he would be accommodating with John.

Concerning Mary of Burgundy even if Maximillian choose to interven he could do nothing he doesn't have enough ressources, troops, ... and many burgundians estate would choose John side he was a noble like them and will be ready to accept some autonomy for these vassal and his relation with the french would allow them to stay friend with them or the two main claim of Burgundians are peace and autonomy. So yes, John will have a lot of chance to kept these territories.

After concerning his sucessor i think that John Duke of Cleves would be popular and burgundian would not see any problem with him, all would depend his relation with the french.

Who is better Rene II of Lorraine or John? Rene has more land but John is German.
 
I think a division of the Burgundian lands can be done instead, the French and appanage lands go to John, duke of Nevers while the Holy Roman lands go to Mary of Burgundy.
 
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