WI: Alt "Turner Diaries" for different ideologies.

Pretaporter

Banned
The woman wasn't burnt for being a priestess, but for being a worshiper of Isis despite being supposedly an Anglican priest.

No, even the narrator says her having an Isis idol is rumour.

She is literally burned for heresy, after refusing to recant her priesthood, and the narrator goes on at length about this and how sad it is(!)
 
No, even the narrator says her having an Isis idol is rumour.

She is literally burned for heresy, after refusing to recant her priesthood, and the narrator goes on at length about this and how sad it is(!)
And yet she goes to the flame bravely. And is seen as the bad guy/girl here.

Just shows what sort of society Victoria is. We're back at the Salem witch hunts, and that's seen as a necessary evil.

One thing I would have loved to see is William Lind's band of Martyr Stus run into a real, mean bastard, an American Joe Steele. He has the federal government as evil and incompetent, just the perfect mix for his people to win, and then he proceeds to sell out or fight the successor states. And yet, his book was supposed to be a model of 'fourth generation' warfare, like Hezbollah, the Afghan mujahedeen, and the Viet Cong.

If it were like any of those, the Victorians would be bleeding like crazy. You don't sign up for insurgencies unless you well and truly have nothing left to lose. And even then, expect to lose half your family and most likely your own life as the authorities crack down on you and crack down hard. Ask the Irish about the Times of Troubles. Ask anyone who remembers the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. Ask anyone who lived in the worst parts of the Lebanese Civil War. It's not about American can-do spirit, it's about ethnic hate and political struggles and civil strife that have been simmering for so long it's a volcano waiting to erupt, causing massive collateral damage everywhere.
 
Richard Osborne wrote:
What would a black supremacist "Turner Diaries" look like and would it have as much influence as the RL one? Neo-imperial Japanese, Hinduvata, Ultr-Zionist, National Bolsheviks, Christian dominionist.

The first thing to define is how much influence had the TD actually had? Then we need to define what that influence is and what the overall effect of it is.

As noted The Turner Diaries is a mediocre book at best, (honestly I never managed to finish it, and I managed to wade through “Victoria”) but its “message” seesm to be what made it stand out over other such efforts. Not that the message was different or new mind you but unlike most screeds on such subjects TTD simply assumes the reader is already someone who knows what the message is and is more interested in the end result.

Let me post some links to more in-depth discussions:
https://www.adl.org/education/resources/backgrounders/turner-diaries
https://www.theatlantic.com/politic...ner-diaries-changed-white-nationalism/500039/
https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-...ther-racist-novels-inspire-extremist-violence
https://thinkprogress.org/this-dist...-white-nationalists-for-decades-6b6b336725a2/
https://www.nytimes.com/2001/06/09/us/behind-a-book-that-inspired-mcveigh.html

As most of the links point out the author (a vehement Neo-Nazi) specifically split with a group he created and the majority the then current “movement” because they were so rigidly ideological and restrictive that they had marginalized themselves as “freaks” and were individually “weak” by internal division. He then organized a new group called “National Alliance” which tone down the Nazi rhetoric but turned up the white supremacist rhetoric which could then appeal to previously diverse groups such as Christian Identity, the KKK and the less rigid Neo-Nazi’s who could then find “common ground” to work together from.

But the novel itself was simply a side-effort to see if fiction could be used to spread the “message” without focusing too much on the “why” but more on the “how” and seeing if it resonated. And it didn’t, not at first. Initially it was mostly Neo-Nazi and some hard core white supremacists who bought the book but eventually the numerous ‘messages’ contained therein (not only anti-Semitism or white supremacy but it includes distrust of “Big Government”, gun control, liberal policy among other ‘causes’) to the point where Timothy McVeigh (OKC bomber) recommended the book not for its overt racist message but as a “plan” on how to fight when the “government” came to get your guns and sold it at gun shows.

And his actions in OKC brought the book a much wider audience who ALSO basically “ignore” the racism and find their own cause that is worth fighting “they system” for.

The “message” in TTD is simply that you CAN fight back and in fact you will have no choice to preserve you way of life, your culture and your ‘race’ which resonates with people who are in fact afraid of losing any and all of them In the future. Change “Jew’s” to Americans and/or European’s, the skin color and culture and move it to the proper location and I’m pretty sure the main message would still resonate with some people. Heck put the “Alt-Right” in charge and a few other changes and frankly you have a Left/Liberal version of TTD with little effort. (And IIRC the publisher who owns TTD has in fact sued several authors and other publishers on charges of doing just that)

The thing is, and unlike the majority of “copy-cat” books such as “Victoria”, the protagonist of TTD’s actually faces a fairly competent and formidable “foe” in “The System” so the protagonists struggle and ultimate sacrifice are actually given some depth. Which is likely why I couldn’t finish it whereas I could “Victoria” since the latter was comedy and “WTF?” gold whereas TTD was to serious and sober dealing with a totally unengaging premise for me to bull through. Much like the Carrera Series which has about two dozen VERY fascinating plot points that COULD have been worth reading in the first book alone but devolved into a self-insert Mary-Sue revenge/control fantasy that totally wasted all of it.

The key I suppose is to ensure you don’t caricature the “enemy” to the point of ludicrous incompetence but at the same time make it clear the ‘wining’ for the protagonist is still quite clearly going to be the outcome. In that way it will “appeal” to your target audience, (who are already on-board with the base philosophy anyway) but enough other messages/causes included to entice people only marginally aware or interested in the core ideology to read and perhaps come away with support for what they believe. It’s arguably, (and the above article do argue this) that such inclusiveness was what revived the then (late 1970s) ‘dying’ Neo-Nazi and White Supremacist movements and helped jumpstart the anti-government groups that would explode in the post-Cold War era.

I have no doubt there ARE other extremists versions of TTD’s out there because the premise is in fact applicable to any extreme point-of-view. I just doubt they are as ‘famous’ or accessible because of the fact that the majority of people on here are not within the “target” audience and therefore are unlikely to see them. Remember TTD’s didn’t take off till after the OKC bomb and trail, and then it was more associated with fighting "the government" and protecting gun-rights than the racism and Nazi propaganda. But as those factors ARE in fact the heart of the book they are still there and always will be which eventually makes them if not acceptable then at least possible.

Randy

Randy
 
What would a black supremacist "Turner Diaries" look like and would it have as much influence as the RL one? Neo-imperial Japanese, Hinduvata, Ultr-Zionist, National Bolsheviks, Christian dominionist.
Eugenics had been very influencial in the early decades of 20th Century. Maybe a non scietific novel by a radical Eugenicist that attracts a violently movement ?
 
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