WI Allies decide to be stupid in 1939

We all know that the French and the British had plans to bomb Baku which would involve the USSR on Germany's side. They didn't do this for obvious reasons. What if they had been stupid one day and had decided to bomb Baku. Maybe Churchill could have done that. He had no love for Stalin whatsoever.

This would make for an interesting WW2. The USSR, Germany and Japan would be the principal axis powers and none of them trusted each other. How would WW2 turn out. Could the combined industrial and military might of the USSR and Nazi-Germany make the 'unmentionable sea mammal' possible. The Soviets were building four of these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovietsky_Soyuz_class_battleship

and were planning to have 15 by 1947.
 
I doubt it, Hitler and Stalin wouldnt be able to stomach each other's existance long enough to put GB down.

The only way they could concieveably ally for a longer length of time, is if the US pokes its head into the European theater, attacking them both. BTW if, in the off chance, that Hitler allied with the Soviets, would Japan consider severing ties with them in favor of getting an alliance with the US?
 

Ardimis

Banned
Well consider the POD of this I would say it a very real possibility Hitler and Stalin would have worked together. Considering that the USSR was most likely going to stay neutral until Hitler had one of those crazy moments. Also Japan most likely would have like to have the USSR as an allie it would have given more ways to supply their forces in Manchuria.
 
I'm not sure it would go as bad as USSR joining Axis. Worst-case scenario would be ATL analog of Nomonhan or Khasan. Regardless of Stalin's feelings toward "Anglo-French aggressors", he's not likely to pick another fight. Would he be yearning for big fight, Nomonhan would had been escalated to a big war and Winter War would have ended with "Socialist Finland".
 
Nomonhan would have been difficult (with supply and all). The Soviets now have a chance to see the German army in action and to take a look at their panzers and the Lutwaffe. Secondly this is an act of war and not just a skirmish based on a mistake like the Nomonhan Incident. The French and British have deliberately attacked Soviet installations (Baku oilfields) in retaliation for the USSR's part in the partition of Poland.
 
Secondly this is an act of war and not just a skirmish based on a mistake like the Nomonhan Incident. The French and British have deliberately attacked Soviet installations (Baku oilfields) in retaliation for the USSR's part in the partition of Poland.
Stalin would be able to swallow this pill if he woule see it as good policy. I'm not saying that he will swallow it no matter what, but even such public slap isn't fatal deal-breaker. A lot would depend on effectiveness of Allied attack, though.
 
Stalin would be able to swallow this pill if he woule see it as good policy. I'm not saying that he will swallow it no matter what, but even such public slap isn't fatal deal-breaker. A lot would depend on effectiveness of Allied attack, though.

Well, I did not venture into assessing the Soviet reaction, but if it depends on that, then the starting point of that reaction would be: "What? That's an attack? Everybody has overestimated long-range air bombing".
 
I'm not sure it would go as bad as USSR joining Axis. Worst-case scenario would be ATL analog of Nomonhan or Khasan. Regardless of Stalin's feelings toward "Anglo-French aggressors", he's not likely to pick another fight. Would he be yearning for big fight, Nomonhan would had been escalated to a big war and Winter War would have ended with "Socialist Finland".

But Stalin did try for a Socialist Finland.
 
Well, I did not venture into assessing the Soviet reaction, but if it depends on that, then the starting point of that reaction would be: "What? That's an attack? Everybody has overestimated long-range air bombing".
Well, I would not bet on it. Sometimes the Supreme Being likes to throw outlandishly unlikely bad combinations of cards for Russia to play with (Tsushima and whole Russo-Japanese war being the ultimate examples). So, bombing can result in Kuwait-style destruction and fires in Baku, effectively knocking Soviet oil industry out of production mode for next year or so. Baku's oil fields are very compact, a lot of infrastructure was flimsy and jury-rigged and there're small lakes and puddles of flammable tar all over the place (left behind by chaotic and unscientific oil exploration).
 
Well, I would not bet on it. Sometimes the Supreme Being likes to throw outlandishly unlikely bad combinations of cards for Russia to play with (Tsushima and whole Russo-Japanese war being the ultimate examples). So, bombing can result in Kuwait-style destruction and fires in Baku, effectively knocking Soviet oil industry out of production mode for next year or so. Baku's oil fields are very compact, a lot of infrastructure was flimsy and jury-rigged and there're small lakes and puddles of flammable tar all over the place (left behind by chaotic and unscientific oil exploration).

The point would be hitting the general target area in the first place, which is not a given. If at the time the Soviet efforts at extracting oil were unscientific, so was British long-range bombing.

That said, how much was the share of production form Baku? To say that the while Soviet oil industry is effectively out of service, you'd need Baku basically out of service and its oil being over 90% of the output.
 
But Stalin did try for a Socialist Finland.
Yes, but his very reaction to initial fiasco (I'm pretty sure they were counting on Finnish collapse at very least) shows that he was trying to minimize all military adventures not directly related to looming German-Soviet war. He wrapped the war up as soon as he was able to get favourable (but very cold and unfriendly) peace against Finland, even leaving Finnish army with enough equipment to wage second successfull war against USSR. Well, how stupid is that, would you ask? Not at all, because conquering Finland stopped being the aim since approximately Dec. 1939. Preparing for the big show with Hitler always was.
 
That said, how much was the share of production form Baku? To say that the while Soviet oil industry is effectively out of service, you'd need Baku basically out of service and its oil being over 90% of the output.
Baku was very much sole source. There was some capacity in Chechnya and some puny second-rate wells in Carpathians, Ukraine etc. Tatarstan-Lower Volga oil (affectionally known as "2nd Baku" in USSR) was discovered, but infrastructure haven't been developed yet. And Siberian oil wasn't discovered.

It was just that the post-purges Red Army was not up to the task of conquering Finland.
I think you want to talk with our Finnish friends on this forum.
 
There was German Soviet naval cooperation on a limited scale from 1939-41 but it was fairly weak. The Russians got opne unfinished cruiser that they never completed and an auxilliary cruiser was assisted in using the North East passage by ice breakers. Their planned battelships were never completed by 1945 in fact never completed at all. A more feasible scenario would have been allied intervention to aid Finland this was planned as an excuse to sieze Narvik but never got beyond the drawing board before the Winter War was over.

However in the event of Baku being bombed there would be no Winter War as the Soviet Union invaded Finland to gain some forts in the approaches to Leningrad. Stalin didn't want a Socialist Finland merely a strip of land.

France would have fallen more quickly had the allies been daft and Britain would have had no reprieve in 1941 as Germany could have devoted all the luftwaffe into bombing Britain. Britain's only hope would have been the entry of the United States into the war
 
Well the Soviets wanted to join the Triparitie pact but dumbass Austrian (thats Hitler FYI may he burn forever:D) was already planning to invade, plus he originnally wanted an alliance with Britian though if German Commanders, who would have preffered to work with the Sovietsk, do manage to commence him to help yeah I can see the Allies having more problems
 
Stalin didn't want a Socialist Finland merely a strip of land.

I beg to differ. Stalin not merely wanted a Socialist Finland; in fact he was quite convinced there already was one. This from the Report and Resolution of the Assembly of the League of Nations, December 14th 1939:

"7) After having broken off diplomatic relations with the Finnish Government and rejected the good offices of the United States Government, the Soviet Government refused to send representatives to the Council or Assembly, on the ground that it was not in a state of war with Finland and was not threatening the Finnish people with war. This affirmation was based, inter alia, on the fact that the Soviet Government maintained peaceful relations with the "Democratic Republic of Finland" and that it had signed with the latter, a Pact of Assistance and Friendship "settling all the questions which the Soviet Government had fruitlessly discussed with the delegates of the former Finnish Government, now divested of its power". "
 
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