WI Allied victory in race to the sea

Okay so how could it have happened? And what happens next? How far back would the German lines be pushed? Would France have liberated its industrial sector and thus ended Germany's hopes for victory?
 

mowque

Banned
Okay so how could it have happened? And what happens next? How far back would the German lines be pushed? Would France have liberated its industrial sector and thus ended Germany's hopes for victory?

Can someone share what the 'race to the sea' was/is?
 

Deleted member 1487

The won the race to the sea OTL. Basically the Germans were still attempting to win in one knock out stroke by turning the Allied flank. The Allies had the same idea, but "won" in the sense that they defeated all German attempts to "race to the sea". Now if you mean they successfully turn the German flank, that is ASB. After the massive casualties from the previous 1.5 months, the French and British were incapable of turning the German flank anymore than the Germans were able to turn theirs. A POD would have to do with fewer French casualties and greater German during the Marne and before. But if that were to happen, than the Race to the Sea might not even happen as we know it, as the French would just be able to turn the German flank at the Marne.

If by ASB intervention that the Allies did do it, than the Germans just probably lost 1 or more armies and likely their nerve. I could see a reasonable peace offer from the Germans, but maybe not. If not, then the Germans are in an even worse place for the coming winter battles and peace will most likely come in 1915, as the extra casualties taken by the Germans means that the French offensives preclude Germans force transfers to the East without a large withdrawal to the shorter lines, close to Germany. This would likely once again mean peace in 1915, as the Austrians sue for peace after another belugeoning by the Russians. With their fall comes the Germans shortly thereafter. Much earlier Allied victory and a much better off Europe, though the same could be said if the Germans won early too.
 
wiking said:
The won the race to the sea OTL. Basically the Germans were still attempting to win in one knock out stroke by turning the Allied flank. The Allies had the same idea, but "won" in the sense that they defeated all German attempts to "race to the sea". Now if you mean they successfully turn the German flank, that is ASB. After the massive casualties from the previous 1.5 months, the French and British were incapable of turning the German flank anymore than the Germans were able to turn theirs. A POD would have to do with fewer French casualties and greater German during the Marne and before. But if that were to happen, than the Race to the Sea might not even happen as we know it, as the French would just be able to turn the German flank at the Marne.

Didn't the Germans nearly breakthrough though. I heard one account of a captured German being informed that Brigade Headquarters was the next line of defense. So basically I'm wondering if the allies ever had a similar chance.

wiking said:
If by ASB intervention that the Allies did do it, than the Germans just probably lost 1 or more armies and likely their nerve. I could see a reasonable peace offer from the Germans, but maybe not. If not, then the Germans are in an even worse place for the coming winter battles and peace will most likely come in 1915, as the extra casualties taken by the Germans means that the French offensives preclude Germans force transfers to the East without a large withdrawal to the shorter lines, close to Germany. This would likely once again mean peace in 1915, as the Austrians sue for peace after another belugeoning by the Russians. With their fall comes the Germans shortly thereafter. Much earlier Allied victory and a much better off Europe, though the same could be said if the Germans won early too.

Not really looking for ASB just if the Germans had a plan if their flank was turned liked withdrawing behind the Rhine or even calling it quits.
 
I think a breakthrough late in the campaign almost occured, but a BEF btn, the Wochershires or something like that held it off with the rapid rifle fire the prewar-trained BEF became famous for.
 
I think a breakthrough late in the campaign almost occured, but a BEF btn, the Wochershires or something like that held it off with the rapid rifle fire the prewar-trained BEF became famous for.
i think what he means is a reverse of that, pretty much.
 
There are 4 major battles in the Race to Sea. Albert, First Arras, Yser and First Ypres. In a typical Anglocentric history of WWI, Albert and Arras get 2-3 sentences each, Yser an entire paragraph about the Belgians flooding the countryside and First Ypres at least a page. There is no way the BEF could have turned the German flank at Ypres as they were too badly outnumbered. There is some modest chance for the French to do better at either Albert or Arras but this would be more of a limited tactical success not a full fledged strategic turning point. The worst case for the Germans would see them pushed back to roughly where the Hindenburg Line was.
 
Guys

Would it be possible, with say a different attitude from the Germans and/or say some British reinforcements from somewhere for the Antwerpt area to be held? Say instead of driving north to finish off the Belgium's the Germans decide everything needs to go into the battle of France and just screen the allied forces around Antwerp. The extra forces sent into France have a similar sort of role to Grouchy's [sp?] corp at Waterloo marching south too late to change the Marne defeat then hurrying north too late to affect the main allied forces linking up with those in northrn Belgium.

If so markedly more of Belgium would be held including the Flanders coastline, which would remove the bases for small boats and U boats there and give Belgium a much bigger recruitment base. Also the Germans would fail to capture the nitrates stocks there, which have been suggested as being very important in tidying them over until the Haber process was in full flow. Also its likely that the Germans would have been forced back elsewhere and possibly wouldn't have had the good defencive positions they held along much of the western front, holding the high ground along the majority of it.

Steve
 
So if the British send reinforcements to Antwerp and then Breakout into the German rear, how does the German High Command respond? I mean if the British can drive south and east towards Brussels and Liege wouldn't that endanger the Germans LOC? Could the Germans be caught in a great encirclement?
 

Deleted member 1487

Then the channel ports fall and the British government panics. There is no reason for the British to threaten the German rear with the paltry forces at their disposal, which would probably be cutoff and destroyed, while the Germans could take Calais and threaten the home Isles. That was the primary British goal during this period: protect the channel ports. Without them, everything else is irrelevant.

Basically the Allies could not really do that much better than they did unless the Germans took all their excess forces and sent them East instead of trying to finish the war in the West.
 
I don't think they'd get cut off as long as the RN has naval supremacy, but I take your point. Britain has to have a much larger force to be able to save both the Channel ports and land at Antwerp.
 
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