Thank you. And yes, Dauphin Charles is the gender flipped Princess Charlotte of France.
WI: All of Katherine of Aragon's children live to adulthood
- Thread starter Dame Violet
- Start date
Deleted member 147978
@Violet Rose Lily
Does King Henry still shit on Luther just like IOTL now that he has three living sons, all raised Catholic ITTL? I bet the Reformation wouldn't encroach England this time around.
Does King Henry still shit on Luther just like IOTL now that he has three living sons, all raised Catholic ITTL? I bet the Reformation wouldn't encroach England this time around.
Deleted member 147978
That's if one of them goes into the rebellious phase.
Hal, Ned, Johnny would be like: "Screw you, daddy. You're not the boss of me now, and I'm reading Luther and convert to Lutherism, and that's that."
Yeah. Alternately they wed a Protestant bride after Henry's death. Alternately one of them has their father's IOTL story...
So Manuel wanted to marry his dead wife's niece (who instead became his daughter-in-law) but he married his dead wife's stepmother who might have been already pregnant by her step-grandson. She also conviced (probably with sex) said step-grandson to become engaged to her new step-daughter. This is even more tangled, convoluted and soap-operaish than OTL. I love it.
They are currently engaged to Princess Mary.
Of course, he does. Henry likes being the church's favorite son unless they tell him no. The reformation won't happen for a long time if it ever does.
I love it too. It is a very tangled web. That is what makes it fun.
Deleted member 147978
I bet he'll be having meals watching heretics being burned at the stake.
I still love this thread. Do we think Henry and Katherine play favorites or no?
I think Henry definitely does. Katherine probably tries to hide it but who knows
Well, Henry definitly loves his firstborns the best as they coincided with the best years of his life. Katherine, on the other hand, I can't really see picking favorites, at least not while they are small children.
When their personalities form it will be clearer I think...
1520
King Henry was not pleased with Emperor Charles spurning his daughter and then stealing a Crown Prince from her in one full swoop. Things grew even more tense when the Portuguese Ambassador suggested that Princess Elizabeth marry Luis, Duke of Beja. He angrily shouted that his daughter was worthy of a king, not a second son. His precious sapphire would be a queen or nothing.
Despite his anger towards the emperor, Henry still wanted Catherine of Austria for his son and therefore invited the emperor and his sister to England for a state visit in the month of February. It would be the first time little Hal, aged nine, would lay eyes on his future bride. He was a shy child who let his brother, Edward, Duke of York do most of the talking. To her credit, the thirteen-year-old girl made an effort to charm her betrothed, but any time they spent together was hampered with interpretations as neither knew each other's language.
With the adults, King Henry, Emperor Charles and Queen Katherine met with each other, wining and dining---by the end, it was agreed that Princess Catherine would reside in England once she turned fifteen, allowing her to get acquainted with her country, leaning how to rule while she waited for her groom to become sixteen. The dowry was negotiated again, to the surprise of all, Emperor Charles increased it----it was no doubt a ploy to keep King Henry from continuing to grumble about his daughter's loss of grooms.
In the seventh of June, the English and French courts met on Field of the Cloth of Gold. The English had Princess Elizabeth and Princess Mary with them. (Prince Hal was supposed to come along as well but he fell sick with a cold). With the French Monarchs was not only Prince Charles, who was soon to be officially betrothed to Princess Mary, but also King Henri of Navarre.
To Queen Katherine's shock while her husband and she were wining and dining her nephew, Wolsey had been in contact with the French Ambassador, Thomas Boleyn, who in turn was talking to both the French king and the teenaged Navarre monarch, negotiating the marriage between Princess Elizabeth and King Henri. Katherine recognized it was either Henri or King James of Scots for her first born daughter, so this did not disturb her. However, she suspected the secrecy surrounding her daughter's engagement was because King Henry had promised to offer troops should King Henri ever want to reclaim his lands. She also feared that this would cause Emperor Charles to rethink the dowry negotiations if he thought he had been deceived, not mention the idea that despite making a peace treaty, King Henry planned to attack his lands.
Of course, pointing out these reasonable points (although no one could deny that the Spanish queen had a vested interest in her family not losing anything) to Henry---privately---did very little good. Instead it caused a very loud argument where the hot headed king accused his wife of putting Spain and her nephew over her own children, noting again that Emperor Charles had humiliated them by snubbing their daughter----ignoring the fact that he had broken the betrothal between the then Archduke Charles and his sister, Mary.
Although the tension between the two English monarchs was very clear to many of the spectators, they manged to keep a brave face for the festivities. For their French counterparts, they got along very well. Queen Claude was pregnant with her fifth child and she and Katherine discussed their children. King Henry and King Francois' competition was friendly----for the most part. The wrestling match notwithstanding where King Francois defeated King Henry. Despite his smarting ego, the treaty was signed with Princess Elizabeth and Princess Mary being officially betrothed.
Now that three of his children were engaged, Henry had Wolsey search for potential spouses for Edward, John and Catherine. He was determined that all his children would have marriages worthy of their standing.
Despite his anger towards the emperor, Henry still wanted Catherine of Austria for his son and therefore invited the emperor and his sister to England for a state visit in the month of February. It would be the first time little Hal, aged nine, would lay eyes on his future bride. He was a shy child who let his brother, Edward, Duke of York do most of the talking. To her credit, the thirteen-year-old girl made an effort to charm her betrothed, but any time they spent together was hampered with interpretations as neither knew each other's language.
With the adults, King Henry, Emperor Charles and Queen Katherine met with each other, wining and dining---by the end, it was agreed that Princess Catherine would reside in England once she turned fifteen, allowing her to get acquainted with her country, leaning how to rule while she waited for her groom to become sixteen. The dowry was negotiated again, to the surprise of all, Emperor Charles increased it----it was no doubt a ploy to keep King Henry from continuing to grumble about his daughter's loss of grooms.
In the seventh of June, the English and French courts met on Field of the Cloth of Gold. The English had Princess Elizabeth and Princess Mary with them. (Prince Hal was supposed to come along as well but he fell sick with a cold). With the French Monarchs was not only Prince Charles, who was soon to be officially betrothed to Princess Mary, but also King Henri of Navarre.
To Queen Katherine's shock while her husband and she were wining and dining her nephew, Wolsey had been in contact with the French Ambassador, Thomas Boleyn, who in turn was talking to both the French king and the teenaged Navarre monarch, negotiating the marriage between Princess Elizabeth and King Henri. Katherine recognized it was either Henri or King James of Scots for her first born daughter, so this did not disturb her. However, she suspected the secrecy surrounding her daughter's engagement was because King Henry had promised to offer troops should King Henri ever want to reclaim his lands. She also feared that this would cause Emperor Charles to rethink the dowry negotiations if he thought he had been deceived, not mention the idea that despite making a peace treaty, King Henry planned to attack his lands.
Of course, pointing out these reasonable points (although no one could deny that the Spanish queen had a vested interest in her family not losing anything) to Henry---privately---did very little good. Instead it caused a very loud argument where the hot headed king accused his wife of putting Spain and her nephew over her own children, noting again that Emperor Charles had humiliated them by snubbing their daughter----ignoring the fact that he had broken the betrothal between the then Archduke Charles and his sister, Mary.
Although the tension between the two English monarchs was very clear to many of the spectators, they manged to keep a brave face for the festivities. For their French counterparts, they got along very well. Queen Claude was pregnant with her fifth child and she and Katherine discussed their children. King Henry and King Francois' competition was friendly----for the most part. The wrestling match notwithstanding where King Francois defeated King Henry. Despite his smarting ego, the treaty was signed with Princess Elizabeth and Princess Mary being officially betrothed.
Now that three of his children were engaged, Henry had Wolsey search for potential spouses for Edward, John and Catherine. He was determined that all his children would have marriages worthy of their standing.
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Deleted member 147978
I hope Wolsey found good spouses for the children. 🙏
Well, a marriage between Elizabeth and Henri would certainly be interesting. It would (partially) deal with the succession issues in Navarre considering that Elizabeth's maternal grandfather was Ferdinand II of Aragon. On the other hand, it seems this may be a French ploy to divide the English and Charles V. A match between Elizabeth and James meanwhile could potentially pull Scottish support away from France, so all in all this match will be very important. Nice update!
Henry is being rather hypocritical about Charles considering he did not allow his sister to become Holy Roman Empress...if Charles brings it up then what on earth is Henry going to reply with?
1521
On the feast day of St. Julian of Cagliari, a new infante of Portugal is born. He is named Juliano [1]. Unfortunately, the proud father has limited time to celebrate as he soon falls ill. It is clear that by the end of the year, Portugal will have a new king. Queen Germaine just hopes her stepson will provide for his siblings. Sadly Juliano would only live for a few months, leaving Infanta Maria being the only living child of Queen Germaine.
Over in England, Prince Henry falls ill, which causes his father to put all plans on sending him to Wales on hold, fearing that like his unfortunate uncle, Prince Harry's health might be too fragile for the Welsh Marshes, he decided to wait until Harry was older, instead building him a palace in Cornwall, and decreeing it would be his son's court. Queen Katherine approved of the plan, but spent several days fussing over her son even nursing him back to health herself. She only returned (after ensuring her son had fully recovered) when her husband sent her a letter, needing her council on an important matter: their youngest daughter's marriage.
Shortly before their son had fallen ill, King Henry had arranged the marriages between Anne Bourchier [2] and Prince Edward along with Catherine Willoughby [3] being betrothed to Prince John. Now only Princess Catherine was unattached. As much as King Henry wanted all three of his daughters to be queens, his only options were Sigsmund of Poland and James of Scotland. Sigsmund of Poland was promised a Hapsburg match, and Scotland was seeking a French princess. This left Henry with no kings for his youngest daughter.
The Duke of Buckingham [4] suggested his grandson while the Duke of Norfolk [5] offered his son. Wolsey suggested a match between the Earl of Lincoln {6}. Katherine and Henry were unopposed to a domestic match for their younger daughter, in fact the idea of keeping at least one of their girls with them was certainly appealing, they were eager to have England have more of a presence in European politics. When King Henry wrote his response to Martin Luther's attack on the papacy and received the title Defender of the Faith, Henry decided an Italian duke might be a splendid idea, although he did not discount the suggestion of marrying his daughter to one of the German princes.
However, all plans were put to the wayside when around All Saints Day, it was discovered that Queen Katherine was expecting for the seventh time [7] much to their joy. Henry was ecstatic as he was certain the babe would be a fourth son. He sent away his current mistress, in fear that his wife would become upset in her condition if she were to see his mistress every day, causing harm to her and their unborn child. As Katherine dryly notes in a letter, she had to see Mary Boleyn every day the woman served as one of her ladies, and Henry did not see to worry about upsetting her then. Nonetheless, the queen understood her husband's concern for her health as she was almost the same age as Elizabeth of York [8] when she died in childbed.
War broke out again between Spain and France with France and Navarre attempting to take back some of the lands taken by King Ferdinand of Aragon. Officially Henry was neutral, unofficially he supplied the young King Henri with an advance on Elizabeth's dowry which wouldn't you know it was just enough to hire plenty of mercenaries. Although the victories were minor, it was enough for King Henri to expand his territories past the border that separated Upper and Lower Navarre.
However, while the ruler of England was most helpful to his Navarre counterpart, he scarcely lifted a finger when the Papal-Spanish armies run France out of Milian, and therefore Italy. It was clear that King Henry was more concerned in his own interests than anyone else. Granted, with his son betrothed to the sister of the Emperor, he was cautious about upsetting the man too much least he lost the Imperial match.
Elsewhere in Europe, the Ottomans continue to attack Hungary, capturing Belgrade.
December ends with King Manuel's death, and the announcement of the new Queen Leonor's pregnancy. Empress Isabel makes the same announcement.
1. Well she wasn't calling him Charles. Sadly, he has his historical counterpart's fate of living for only a few months.
2. Anne Bourchier was the heiress of the Earl of Essex. Granted, it was probably a bit early to say she will be the only child of her father, but considering her father's possible birth date is 1467 (albeit could have been as late as 1480), it is still not a bad bet. She is quite a scandalous woman in history, I already have a little plot for her planned. Thank you to @isabella who suggested her and Catherine Willoughby.
3. Speaking of whom, Catherine Willoughby was not only an heiress, but also the daughter of one of Katherine's closest friends, Maria de Salinas. In hindsight, perfect wife for one of the princes.
4. So I am going to subscribe to the theory that Buckingham's "treason" was result of Henry's paranoia about having a male claimant to his throne who also had his own sons and was a duke. With three sons of relative health, Henry is less worried. The marriage in question would be between Henry Stafford (b. 1520) (who is the grandson of the Duke of Buckingham) and Princess Catherine.
5. Duke of Norfolk is offering his son Henry Howard (b. 1516).
6. That would be the son of Duke Charles of Suffolk and Princess Mary the Elder, born in 1516. Any suggestions for a husband for Princess Catherine would be greatly appreciated.
7. I wanted to get my fourth son somehow. Here's my thought. In OTL King Henry stops sleeping with Katherine around 1519/1520, and rather erroneously believes she is barren. In the TL, Henry is still sleeping with his wife, despite his mistresses and as a plus, Katherine isn't destroying her health and her body.
8. Elizabeth of York was thirty-seven when she died. In December 1521, Katherine turned thirty-six, only a year younger, adding the mindset of time time that Katherine is past her childbearing years, it causes Henry to fear that history will repeat so he is erring on the side of caution.
Over in England, Prince Henry falls ill, which causes his father to put all plans on sending him to Wales on hold, fearing that like his unfortunate uncle, Prince Harry's health might be too fragile for the Welsh Marshes, he decided to wait until Harry was older, instead building him a palace in Cornwall, and decreeing it would be his son's court. Queen Katherine approved of the plan, but spent several days fussing over her son even nursing him back to health herself. She only returned (after ensuring her son had fully recovered) when her husband sent her a letter, needing her council on an important matter: their youngest daughter's marriage.
Shortly before their son had fallen ill, King Henry had arranged the marriages between Anne Bourchier [2] and Prince Edward along with Catherine Willoughby [3] being betrothed to Prince John. Now only Princess Catherine was unattached. As much as King Henry wanted all three of his daughters to be queens, his only options were Sigsmund of Poland and James of Scotland. Sigsmund of Poland was promised a Hapsburg match, and Scotland was seeking a French princess. This left Henry with no kings for his youngest daughter.
The Duke of Buckingham [4] suggested his grandson while the Duke of Norfolk [5] offered his son. Wolsey suggested a match between the Earl of Lincoln {6}. Katherine and Henry were unopposed to a domestic match for their younger daughter, in fact the idea of keeping at least one of their girls with them was certainly appealing, they were eager to have England have more of a presence in European politics. When King Henry wrote his response to Martin Luther's attack on the papacy and received the title Defender of the Faith, Henry decided an Italian duke might be a splendid idea, although he did not discount the suggestion of marrying his daughter to one of the German princes.
However, all plans were put to the wayside when around All Saints Day, it was discovered that Queen Katherine was expecting for the seventh time [7] much to their joy. Henry was ecstatic as he was certain the babe would be a fourth son. He sent away his current mistress, in fear that his wife would become upset in her condition if she were to see his mistress every day, causing harm to her and their unborn child. As Katherine dryly notes in a letter, she had to see Mary Boleyn every day the woman served as one of her ladies, and Henry did not see to worry about upsetting her then. Nonetheless, the queen understood her husband's concern for her health as she was almost the same age as Elizabeth of York [8] when she died in childbed.
War broke out again between Spain and France with France and Navarre attempting to take back some of the lands taken by King Ferdinand of Aragon. Officially Henry was neutral, unofficially he supplied the young King Henri with an advance on Elizabeth's dowry which wouldn't you know it was just enough to hire plenty of mercenaries. Although the victories were minor, it was enough for King Henri to expand his territories past the border that separated Upper and Lower Navarre.
However, while the ruler of England was most helpful to his Navarre counterpart, he scarcely lifted a finger when the Papal-Spanish armies run France out of Milian, and therefore Italy. It was clear that King Henry was more concerned in his own interests than anyone else. Granted, with his son betrothed to the sister of the Emperor, he was cautious about upsetting the man too much least he lost the Imperial match.
Elsewhere in Europe, the Ottomans continue to attack Hungary, capturing Belgrade.
December ends with King Manuel's death, and the announcement of the new Queen Leonor's pregnancy. Empress Isabel makes the same announcement.
1. Well she wasn't calling him Charles. Sadly, he has his historical counterpart's fate of living for only a few months.
2. Anne Bourchier was the heiress of the Earl of Essex. Granted, it was probably a bit early to say she will be the only child of her father, but considering her father's possible birth date is 1467 (albeit could have been as late as 1480), it is still not a bad bet. She is quite a scandalous woman in history, I already have a little plot for her planned. Thank you to @isabella who suggested her and Catherine Willoughby.
3. Speaking of whom, Catherine Willoughby was not only an heiress, but also the daughter of one of Katherine's closest friends, Maria de Salinas. In hindsight, perfect wife for one of the princes.
4. So I am going to subscribe to the theory that Buckingham's "treason" was result of Henry's paranoia about having a male claimant to his throne who also had his own sons and was a duke. With three sons of relative health, Henry is less worried. The marriage in question would be between Henry Stafford (b. 1520) (who is the grandson of the Duke of Buckingham) and Princess Catherine.
5. Duke of Norfolk is offering his son Henry Howard (b. 1516).
6. That would be the son of Duke Charles of Suffolk and Princess Mary the Elder, born in 1516. Any suggestions for a husband for Princess Catherine would be greatly appreciated.
7. I wanted to get my fourth son somehow. Here's my thought. In OTL King Henry stops sleeping with Katherine around 1519/1520, and rather erroneously believes she is barren. In the TL, Henry is still sleeping with his wife, despite his mistresses and as a plus, Katherine isn't destroying her health and her body.
8. Elizabeth of York was thirty-seven when she died. In December 1521, Katherine turned thirty-six, only a year younger, adding the mindset of time time that Katherine is past her childbearing years, it causes Henry to fear that history will repeat so he is erring on the side of caution.
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