WI: Alfred The Great imposes Salic Law

[wwbgdiaslt]

Simple enough question. Alfred the Great becomes King of Wessex and imposes a form of Salic Law. History continues as normal - more or less - but history comes up against a bump in the road in the early 12th Century when the male line of Alfred becomes extinct.

871 - 899 : Alfred the Great
899 - 924 : Edward the Elder
924 - 939 : Athelstan
939 - 946 : Edmund
946 - 959 : Edwig the All Fair
959 - 975 : Edgar the Peaceful
975 - 978 : Edward II
978 - 1016 : Aethelred the Unready
1016 : Edmund II
1016 - 1057 : Edward the Exile
1057 - 1126 : Edgar II

The way I see it, we have a few options - Edgars sisters Margaret was Queen of Scotland from 1070 to 1093, so her son, David of Scotland might try to pursue his own candidacy despite his descent from the female line. But would the Witten want to invite a Scottish King to take control of the - still relatively fledgling - country.

Similarly, the Holy Roman Empire might be able to levy a claim to the throne through Henry V descent from Edward the Elders daughter, Edith of England. But Henry V dies a year before Edgar II and, again - will the Witten mount any resistance to a foreigner on the throne?

Are there any Ealdormen that the Witten might prefer?

Simon, the Earl of Huntingdon-Northampton, could be a contender and the fact that he's the stepson of David of Scotland, would lead to some interesting drama. But Simon dies childless, and the monarchy has another succession crisis upon his death should he win the crown.

 

[Zen9]

So I'll need to reread my books but this is not an ideal option.

It's the Witan in shorthand, or properly witanagemót, meeting of the wise.

As I type I wonder if the sequence would be as per OTL.

 

[wwbgdiaslt]

It's the Witan in shorthand, or properly witanagemót, meeting of the wise.

I use my phone to type up - so apologies on the spelling

As a possibility (and fully prepared for this to be shot down) ...

Edgar II is clearly going to die - he's been on the throne for almost 70 years, he's old and infirm and probably not in full possession of his faculties. The male line of Wessex is at an end - and the Witan are in dispute about who to support as King. Both David of Scotland, and Henry V of the Holy Roman Empire are proposed - but their claims are descended from female lines (Edgar's sister Margaret, and Edward the Elder's daughter, Edith, respectively) and there is clear resistance to an outsider coming to the throne.

Simon de Senlis, Earl of Huntingdon-Northampton, finds himself as the local choice. David of Scotland is his stepfather and Edgar reluctantly writes to Henry V, proposing Simon marries Henry's niece, Agnes of Babenburg.

As part of the marital agreement, Edgar agrees that should Simon die without an heir, the crown would devolve to Agnes' younger brothers Otto and Conrad. To formalize the transition from Edgar to Simon, Edgar formally adopts the Earl.

But chaos erupts - Henry V dies before his niece is married, the prospective new Holy Roman Emperor Lothair, is resistant to releasing Agnes to travel to England and meanwhile David of Scotland is waiting for his stepson, King Simon of England, to capitulate to his demands.

 

[perdu42]

Some random thoughts on your WI?

Simple enough question. Alfred the Great becomes King of Wessex and imposes a form of Salic Law.

By which you mean agnatic primogeniture? Because to some extent AS England already practised agnatic succession but whether it was primogeniture or seniority depended on conditions - war, age of heir and other factors.

History continues as normal - more or less -

Less, I'd say looking at your regnal list.
So no Danish invasion?
Yet Edmund Ironside still dies 1016?
How did Edward the Exile become an exile if no Danish invasion? How then did Edward get to marry Agatha in Hungary?

Simon, the Earl of Huntingdon-Northampton

And yet there is still a Norman invasion? Or did Simon come into existence from some other POD?

If you go the Semi-salic route then the male offspring of Margaret are first in line. Then the male offspring of Æthelred's daughters of which there are more than a few. Henry V would be way down the list.

 

[Zen9]

I use my phone to type up - so apologies on the spelling

I use my phone too. So no problem from this old dyslexic.

 

[wwbgdiaslt]

Less, I'd say looking at your regnal list.
So no Danish invasion?
Yet Edmund Ironside still dies 1016?
How did Edward the Exile become an exile if no Danish invasion? How then did Edward get to marry Agatha in Hungary?

And yet there is still a Norman invasion? Or did Simon come into existence from some other POD?

Working my way through the chronology and so far -

Alfred goes with his father Aethelwulf to Rome to meet Charles the Bald in 854. It is here that Alfred is influenced to set up a more formal line of succession after the work that Aethelwulf himself does in his will - with Salic Law (later described as agnostic primogeniture) forming the basis of what comes to be termed Alfred's 'De Legibus Coronam' - descent through the male line only and in the absence of any male heir, the Witen (and the serving King, where possible) must determine the heir out of any likely candidates.

When Edmund the Magnificent dies, the crown passes to his young children, not sideways to Eadred, though Eadred acts as Regent/Lord Protector for Edwig.

Sweyn invaded in 1013, but the English manage to prolong the fight for long enough that Sweyn dies around the same point he dies IOTL meaning Aethelred stays on the throne without an interregnum. Cnut attempts to invade, but Aethelred has found out about the plans for Eadric Streona (his son-in-law), Ealdorman of Mercia, to defect to Cnuts side. Aethelred then imprisons Eadric, takes his lands and moneys and takes personal charge of the Mercian Fyrd. Cnut is still a force to be reckoned with, but when the forces meet each other at Assunden, they are much more evenly matched meaning that Cnut and Edmund make a different peace treaty in the aftermath.

Or the same one, and Cnut silly dies first meaning that Edmund (and his son) then become King of a restored England again.

 

[perdu42]

Follow so far - fairly minor butterflies down to 1013 but then they really go to work...

and Cnut silly dies first meaning that Edmund (and his son) then become King of a restored England again.

1016: and the Ironsides is king and dies leaving twin sons, Edward and Edmund, the elder of whom is now king. And then theres his three surviving brothers, Eadwig, Alfred and Edward...

 

[wwbgdiaslt]

1016: and the Ironsides is king and dies leaving twin sons, Edward and Edmund, the elder of whom is now king. And then theres his three surviving brothers, Eadwig, Alfred and Edward...

Not forgetting that Edward is married to a woman descended from Aethelwold Aethling and also related to Eadric Streona, whom Aethelred has just had tortured and murdered under rumour of treason.

But then again the chronology with the descendants of Aethelwold doesnt quite add up. Edward is married to an Edith, who is "granddaughter" of Wulfnoth Cild, and Cild is the nephew of Eadric Streona, who was married to another Edith (Aethelreds daughter).

 

[perdu42]

Not forgetting that Edward is married to a woman descended from Aethelwold Aethling and also related to Eadric Streona, whom Aethelred has just had tortured and murdered under rumour of treason.

Which Edward are you referring to? (Very easy to lose track of them)
When I first read your post and started responding to it I thought you meant Edmund (Ironside) and was gonna ask, do you have a source on Ealdgyth's descent from Æthelwold?
However I now think you meant the Confessor and his marriage to Edith Godwin's daughter and the speculation that Godwin was descended from Streona's family. Or not... i'm beginning to ramble.

Eadric Streona was married was married to one of Æthelred's daughters - Eadgyth.

 

[wwbgdiaslt]

Which Edward are you referring to? (Very easy to lose track of them)
When I first read your post and started responding to it I thought you meant Edmund (Ironside) and was gonna ask, do you have a source on Ealdgyth's descent from Æthelwold?
However I now think you meant the Confessor and his marriage to Edith Godwin's daughter and the speculation that Godwin was descended from Streona's family. Or not... i'm beginning to ramble.

Eadric Streona was married was married to one of Æthelred's daughters - Eadgyth.

You got it right with the Confessor being married to Godwins daughter and their descent from Streona, and that Streona was married to Aethelreds daughter Eadgyth (I uses the modernised Edith, earlier, apologies).

As far as I can tell,

1) Aethelwold
2) Aethelfrith
3) Eadric
4) Aethelweard, whose sister Aelfgifu was married to Edgar the All Fair
5) Aethelmaer, whose brother appears to be Eadric Streona, husband of Eadgyth/Edith and thus son-in-law of Aethelred
6) Aethelnoth, who became Archbishop of Canterbury, whose brother may be Wulfnoth Cild, father of Godwin, and grandfather of the Edith who married IOTL Edward the Confessor

But the whole chronology obviously doesn't match up, Eadric Streona might not be the brother of Aethelmaer, and and Wulfnoth Cild might not be his son, which would simplify matters greatly.

And then there's the possibility that they could be descendants of Aethelwolds younger brother, Aethelhelm as some sources refer to Aethelweard as the great great grandson of Aethelred.

Not taking into account the phrase that we believe means great great grandson may only mean great grandson, or grandson, perhaps it only means descendant of ...

We just don't have that much info to piece together a concrete family tree, other history being pretty sure that the IOTL version of Edgar II was the last male line descendant of Wessex. Which wouldn't be true had Aethelhelm or Aethelwold have descendants through to Earl Godwin and beyond.

 

[perdu42]

You got it right with the Confessor being married to Godwins daughter and their descent from Streona, and that Streona was married to Aethelreds daughter Eadgyth (I uses the modernised Edith, earlier, apologies).

<snip>

But the whole chronology obviously doesn't match up, Eadric Streona might not be the brother of Aethelmaer, and and Wulfnoth Cild might not be his son, which would simplify matters greatly.

And then there's the possibility that they could be descendants of Aethelwolds younger brother, Aethelhelm as some sources refer to Aethelweard as the great great grandson of Aethelred.

Not taking into account the phrase that we believe means great great grandson may only mean great grandson, or grandson, perhaps it only means descendant of ...

We just don't have that much info to piece together a concrete family tree, other history being pretty sure that the IOTL version of Edgar II was the last male line descendant of Wessex. Which wouldn't be true had Aethelhelm or Aethelwold have descendants through to Earl Godwin and beyond.

Too true but it gives you plenty of scope for an ATL.

But in your reconstruction how does it pass that OTL Edgar II gets to be king. The buffeting from the butterflies from your alt-1016 is substantial... It is possible that like OTL Ironside's brothers and younger son all die without issue, but keeping it so that Edgar II still appears and remains the last male line descendant is pushing it...
Leaving aside the how and going back to your OP, I ust want to reiterate that there are female line descendants closer to Edgar II than the (Holy) Roman Emperor. And if no successful Cnut then Earl Simon of Huntington probably doesn't exist either, irrespective of whether Norman invasion or not.

BTW, no need for apology on the Edith/Eadgyth of Streona. I wasn't having a go at you, when I started responding to your post you hadn't edited it to add that info so I was just filling in.

 

[Zen9]

Hmmmm
...without Æþelred 'Unred' and the further rundown of defences. Sweyn's invasion is set for a less profitable outcome for the 'Danes'.

 

[wwbgdiaslt]

Too true but it gives you plenty of scope for an ATL.

But in your reconstruction how does it pass that OTL Edgar II gets to be king. The buffeting from the butterflies from your alt-1016 is substantial... It is possible that like OTL Ironside's brothers and younger son all die without issue, but keeping it so that Edgar II still appears and remains the last male line descendant is pushing it...
Leaving aside the how and going back to your OP, I ust want to reiterate that there are female line descendants closer to Edgar II than the (Holy) Roman Emperor. And if no successful Cnut then Earl Simon of Huntington probably doesn't exist either, irrespective of whether Norman invasion or not.

My ideal turn-out would have been for a Bourbon or Orleanist equivalent to stem from an earlier heir, but the best possibility would be a descendant of Aethelwold or Aethelhelm and the tracks of their issue are sketchy at the best of times.

I understand about their being closer male heirs through a female line than the HRE, I threw it into the original post as it would be one of the stronger players in Europe politically speaking.

Given the fact that Edgar doesn't appear to have married IOTL, the least we can do is provide him a wife - perhaps Emma of France (b. 1052).

 

[perdu42]

My ideal turn-out would have been for a Bourbon or Orleanist equivalent to stem from an earlier heir, but the best possibility would be a descendant of Aethelwold or Aethelhelm and the tracks of their issue are sketchy at the best of times.

I understand about their being closer male heirs through a female line than the HRE, I threw it into the original post as it would be one of the stronger players in Europe politically speaking.

Given the fact that Edgar doesn't appear to have married IOTL, the least we can do is provide him a wife - perhaps Emma of France (b. 1052).

Yes, those who claimed descent from Æthelred I never really seemed to specify which son it was through. Although it could be done 'easily' enough in an ATL. You could also get your Bourbon/Orleanist analogue with your alt-1016 scenario by having Ironside's surviving brothers marry and have issue.

The Counts of Flanders descended from Alfred in the female line (his daughter Ælfthryth) which means in 1066 you have Count Baldwin V (and issue) of Flanders, Count Eustace II (and issue) of Boulogne plus Duke William’s sons and Earl Tostig’s sons. And, iirc, in addition to (Holy) Roman Emperor Henry IV, Theobald III, Count of Blois also traces descent from Eadgyth as does Odo II of Troyes, Count of Champagne. Or is it Eadgifu?

And for sure, Edgar the Outlaw deserves to be married. Emma of France seems as good a choice as any...

 

[wwbgdiaslt]

I'm quite taken by the idea of "Simon" being a descendant of Aethelred, either via Aethelwold or Aethelhelm. He turns up out of nowhere, perhaps marries a daughter of Edgar/Emma, his credentials are sound but the Witen isn't 100% sold because he's not English (perhaps he hails from one of the Italian states) and they petition Edgar for a different heir, given Alfred stated male heirs of his line (and not male heirs of Aethelwulfs), which could allow some dimension as David of Scotland and the other claimants vie for favour with the Ealdormen.

 

[perdu42]

Alfred goes with his father Aethelwulf to Rome to meet Charles the Bald in 854. It is here that Alfred is influenced to set up a more formal line of successio

This must be where Alfred first starts to earn his nickname. I mean for a seven year old (possibly younger) that is precocious bordering prescient.

I'm quite taken by the idea of "Simon" being a descendant of Aethelred, either via Aethelwold or Aethelhelm. He turns up out of nowhere, perhaps marries a daughter of Edgar/Emma, his credentials are sound but the Witen isn't 100% sold because he's not English (perhaps he hails from one of the Italian states) and they petition Edgar for a different heir, given Alfred stated male heirs of his line (and not male heirs of Aethelwulfs), which could allow some dimension as David of Scotland and the other claimants vie for favour with the Ealdormen.

Ahhh, I made an assumption that "Simon" bore some resemblance to OTL Simon of Huntington.
How are his credentials sound? I mean they must be for him to marry into the 'royal' family. Sounds a right chancer... obviously love is blind but the Witan can see right through him.

 

[wwbgdiaslt]

This must be where Alfred first starts to earn his nickname. I mean for a seven year old (possibly younger) that is precocious bordering prescient.

Whilst he might have had the seeds planted in his mind in Rome, it's not like he turns round to Aethelwulf and goes, "Dad, for my 8th birthday I'd like to institute agnostic primogeniture ..."

Ahhh, I made an assumption that "Simon" bore some resemblance to OTL Simon of Huntington.
How are his credentials sound? I mean they must be for him to marry into the 'royal' family. Sounds a right chancer... obviously love is blind but the Witan can see right through him.

I'm picturing the Anti-Simon faction in the Witan pouring over parchment scrolls in a candle lit catacomb somewhere, trying to discredit him by tracing the family tree and ultimately - it appears that there is a Simon of Naples/Sicily/Tuscany (title to be determined).

 

[perdu42]

Just on an earlier post:
1) Aethelhelm
2) Aethelfrith
3) Eadric
4) Aethelweard
5) Aethelmaer
6) Aethelnoth (A/bp of Canterbury) and his brother Æthelweard > given this Æthelweard is not executed by Cnut in 1017 why not have him marry and produce heirs... You still get the picture of Witan members "pouring over parchment scrolls in a candle lit catacomb somewhere" to determine if he really is a descendant of Æthelred I.

 

[wwbgdiaslt]

Just on an earlier post:
1) Aethelhelm
2) Aethelfrith
3) Eadric
4) Aethelweard
5) Aethelmaer
6) Aethelnoth (A/bp of Canterbury) and his brother Æthelweard > given this Æthelweard is not executed by Cnut in 1017 why not have him marry and produce heirs... You still get the picture of Witan members "pouring over parchment scrolls in a candle lit catacomb somewhere" to determine if he really is a descendant of Æthelred I.

I've been using Simon for the name of our erstwhile Italian contender for the throne until now. But what about Peter?

His continental blood is through a maternal line, with any title he may or may not hold being inherited through that line from a make ancestor.

Using Tuscany as a placeholder for now with regards to the title - Peter of Tuscany, or Simon of Tuscany?

Either name, he married Edgars daughter by Emma of France, who also needs a name - Agatha after Edgars mother, or Constance after Emma's.

I'm leaning towards Peter of Sorrento as Sorrento was a Duchy until 1070, when it was conquered by the Normans, then made a Principality under the Duke of Apulia in 1119. But I'm also keen on Tuscany still, so Peter would be a member of the House of Canossa on his mother's side.

Peter of (either Sorrento or Tuscany) and Constance of Wessex as ultimate winners in the ITL version of The Anarchy.

 

[wwbgdiaslt]

871 - 899 : Alfred the Great (1)
899 - 924 : Edward the Elder
924 - 939 : Athelstan
939 - 946 : Edmund (2)
946 - 959 : Edwig the All Fair
959 - 975 : Edgar the Peaceful
975 - 978 : Edward II
978 - 1018 : Aethelred the Unready
1018 - 1057 : Edward III (3)
1057 - 1126 : Edgar II (4)

(1) During a trip to Europe (he meets both Pope Leo IV and Charles the Bald), the seeds are planted for Alfreds instigation of agnatic primogeniture later.

(2) Despite their age, Edmund's children (Edwig and Edgar) are not initially skipped in favour of their uncle. Eadred acts as Regent - but is termed as Lord Protector at the time.

(3) The English are able to draw out the initial conflict with Sweyn so that he dies, and the invading force halts. Later, Sweyn's son Cnut attempts another invasion, but Eadric Streona's planned defection is uncovered (by his wife, Edith, Aethelreds daughter) and Cnuts invasion fleet is diminished, meaning the English forces are a match. Aethelreds son Edmund dies, but Cnut and Aethelred come to blows at the Battle of Assunden, and a treaty us agreed, with Cnut dying shortly after and the realm reunited. Two years later, Aethelred dies, and his young grandson becomes King with his uncle, Edward, becoming the second Lord Protector.

(4) Edgar marries Emma of France and she bears him a single child, Constance, which means the male line of Alfred has ended. The King and the Witen look for a candidate as an heir - candidates are Henry IV of the Holy Roman Empire and David of Scotland, but a new candidate presents themselves ... Peter of Tuscany who claims descent from Alfreds brother Aethelred through his eldest son, Aethelhelm.