WI: Alexander III of Russia lives

If we remove the train we'd butterfly the Witte coming into power. And he was a prop of industrialization of Tsarist Russia.

There was another son of Alexander III, Georgy, which was smarter than Nicky and Michail but sadly died from tuberculosis. He was a middle son, so if say Nicky dies in said train accident (falls head forward on metal table or breaks his spine or whatever) Georgy is a heir.

I have heard of him before. He was well-educated, a favorite within the family and seemed to be a good pick for Emperor. It might be better to have Nicholas II die in Japan and have George not contract tuberculosis. That way we remove a weak-willed man and save one that could have been a huge help for Imperial Russia.
 
George contacted tuberculosis on the way to Japan - the princes and their Greek cousin were sent on world tour. After symptoms became evident George had to return from half-way on the tour.

Also, the killing of heir apparent will probably cause earlier Russia-Japan War with unknown results.
 
If he lives longer, who does he select for a bride for Nicholas II? Assuming that the Crown Prince also gets to live as well?

Marie Feodorovna is unlikely to be any more mad about Margarethe than Alix was when Queen Victoria suggested her for Eddy - the problem: she's German.

AFAIK Alexander III Marie Feodorovna both favored Hélène d'Orléans at one point. Unfortunately, the Cte de Paris was a stubborn asshole and his daughter was refused the chance of becoming the English queen or the Russian empress to become an Italian royal duchess.

Also, I asked about it before, but it sort of went nowhere - George supposedly married a Georgian woman in the Caucasus while sent there for health reason (this was reported posthumously by the writer Marquise de Fontenoy in an American newspaper in 1906). From said marriage he had three kids - whether this is true or someone just screwing around on wiki again - since it's not on George Alexandrovich's article, but in Grand Duke Constantine Petrovich of Oldenburg's - IDK.

Alexander III living longer (even if Georgy isn't crown prince) would definitely preclude such a match (if it ever took place). And maybe Grand Duke Mikhail Alexandrovich's as well. Since Alexander hated his stepmother - Princess Dolgurovky as well as the idea that Alexander II wanted to crown her tsarina (a la Ekaterina I).
 
Last edited:
Marie Feodorovna is unlikely to be any more mad about Margarethe than Alix was when Queen Victoria suggested her for Eddy - the problem: she's German.

AFAIK Alexander III Marie Feodorovna both favored Hélène d'Orléans at one point. Unfortunately, the Cte de Paris was a stubborn asshole and his daughter was refused the chance of becoming the English queen or the Russian empress to become an Italian royal duchess.

Also, I asked about it before, but it sort of went nowhere - George supposedly married a Georgian woman in the Caucasus while sent there for health reason (this was reported posthumously by the writer Marquise de Fontenoy in an American newspaper in 1906). From said marriage he had three kids - whether this is true or someone just screwing around on wiki again - since it's not on George Alexandrovich's article, but in Grand Duke Constantine Petrovich of Oldenburg's - IDK.

Alexander III living longer (even if Georgy isn't crown prince) would definitely preclude such a match (if it ever took place). And maybe Grand Duke Mikhail Alexandrovich's as well. Since Alexander hated his stepmother - Princess Dolgurovky as well as the idea that Alexander II wanted to crown her tsarina (a la Ekaterina I).

Yeah I completely agree with you about the Comte de Paris. I mean what kind of idiot decides "being Catholic is more important then my daughter's happiness or any political aid for a restoration"? Really a moron.

But I think that the marriage rumors were just that: rumors. There's no real proof and if something like that had taken place one would think that there would be some kind of proof. Diary entries by aristocrats or Grand Dukes mentioning it or the rumors, any kind of recognition of the children later, even if unofficially, by Nicholas II. I mean this is the guy who eventually backed down over EVERY one of the morganatic marriages made by relatives during his reign, so I can't see him not acknowledging any nieces and nephews. Plus there's the fact that the rumors were in American newspapers kinda seals the invalidity of them.
 
The only thing is IDK how she and Nicky would've got along. He told his parents "we will marry Alicky [of Hesse] or we will marry no one". So if they play hardball and say "you will marry Helene, or you will marry no one" it might be a case of Nicky will either a) be dominated by Hélène as he was by Alix, or b) be repulsed by her or see her as forced on him by his parents (and thus he may/may not do his duty by her).

Either way not marrying Alix will be a good start to the 20th century for the Romanovs (and that's without the haemophilia she brought along to the party). IIRC the Russians regarded it as a bad omen that she arrived in Russia for the funeral of Alexander III:

"What were they to think of their new empress, so recently arrived behind a coffin? The more superstitious saw it as an unlucky omen that her Majesty, the bride-empress came to Russia dressed in black." - Theo Aronson, The Grandmother of Europe, Chapter: Alix of Hesse
 
Plus there's the fact that the rumors were in American newspapers kinda seals the invalidity of them.
That, and the fact that the rumor was factually incorrect by date - the eldest of apparent children was born when his supposed biological father was already dead IIRC.
I was very surprised when I learned about this rumor as there's nothing like that in any Russian sources (considering relative "George instead of Idiot Nicky" TL galore something like this must have been mentioned somehow somewhere).
 
Nicholas was determined to marry Alix of Hesse for several years and in the end his parents gave in rather than forbid the match outright - it was almost certainly because Alexander III's health was failing.

Nicholas' affection for her had been actively encouraged by his aunt Ella (Alix's sister) and her husband his Uncle Sergei Alexandrovitch - who had managed things despite knowing Nicholas' parents were reluctant.
Alexander III had not fixed on anyone in particular - Marie Feodorovna had numerous suggestions of alternatives including Helene d'Orleans and Margaret of Prussia (which given Marie F's known dislike of Prussia probably shows how desperate she was)
It is still not really clear why the Imperial couple were so opposed to the match and whether their opposition was in part because Marie F disliked the fact the affair had been managed by others and not her and that she simply did not think Alix was the right choice.
Queen Victoria disliked Alexander III (the feeling was mutual) however her main opposition to the match was "because Minny {Marie Feodorovna)" did not want it.
The Kaiser and Ella in particular pushed Alix into accepting Nicholas (despite her reluctance to convert to Orthodoxy which was the only stumbling block on her part)
Had they had years together before Nicholas' accession things might have been different in terms of her relations with his family.
If you remove Nicholas before his father's death then the situation becames rather difficult in terms of the succession.
George Alexandrovitch becomes heir - although he had TB contracted before the Japan trip (his mother thought the sunshine would help cure him) like his brother Michael resembled the Romanov's more than Nicholas in terms of height and build - he was certainly favoured within the family and was considered the brightest of the family. How much of that is dictated by rose tinted specs cos of his early death is conjecture.
He died suddenly in 1899 after coming off his motorbike - reports that he married morganatically were reported abroad but were denied by the Imperial Court and there is no evidence he did.

Which leaves the teenaged Michael Alexandrovitch as heir. Michael was impetuous and was well-liked within the family, he was considered bright and certainly Witte thought a lot of him - he was regarded as his parents favourite child.

Given George's health he was never formally linked with any royal marital prospects. Michael A was linked with numerous women his first serious and only real royal wedding prospect was his first cousin Beatrice of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha - daughter of Alfred Duke of E and Saxe-Coburg-Gotha and the Grand Duchess Marie Alexandrovna - the match floundered because Nicholas II insisted they couldn't breach church law by marrying (the Orthodox Church forbade first cousin marriage though it had happened in the imperial family).
Her case with Nicholas and Alexandra wasn't helped by the fact her eldest sister had of course divorced her husband Alexandra's brother and married Nicholas' cousin Kyril Vladimirovich (A first cousin marriage that he had been stuck accepting after the fact.)
He was also linked with Princess Patricia of Connaught but that was far more wishful thinking by Marie F and Queen Alexandra than desire on his or the Princess' part.

Assuming Nicholas dies in Japan say and Alexander III dies on schedule - then George succeeds in 1894 unless he renounces or is removed from the succession on account of his health - if he does then Michael succeeds as Emperor at only 16 - strongly influenced by his mother which might not have been a bad thing depending on the influence exerted by the teenaged emperors mixed bag of reactionary uncles and cousins.

Either way the pressure to marry on George if he takes the throne and Michael either way given his older brother's health is going to be significant and unless they fell in love then Marie F will be the biggest decider on which way they go.
 
Or some Princess from Norway or Denmark. Although how would a longer lasting Alexander III deal with the right wing faction (ie: proto-Black Hundreds) as well as leftist revolutionaries?
 
A princess of Norway, Denmark, Greece, Hannover or Britain would be whomever's first cousin (not an insurmountable problem) so I think reserve them for a last ditch attempt at finding a bride. Also, Prussian princesses, and princesses from pro-Prussian families can be crossed off the list due to Christian IX's childrens' hatred for Prussia/Germany.

Princess Margarethe of Prussia might have Marie Feodorovna's approval simply as a better match than Alix, but I think in her heart-of-hearts she would've still preferred Hélène (and it would underline the alliance between Russia and France (though Republican) very well). Margarethe seems to have been the toast of European political scene since both the king of Portugal (Carlos I) and the future king of Italy (Victor Emanuel III) wanted to marry her IIRC - religion being the main obstacle though.
Margarethe herself wanted to marry Max of Baden (who married Nicky's cousin, Princess Marie Luise of Hannover) but settled for his best friend, the prince of Hesse-Kassel instead when it became clear he wasn't interested.

Also, it might be seen by those in the French and British camps that by marrying his son to the kaiser's sister, Alexander III is perhaps trying to jump ship from the Russo-French entente and revive the old Drei Kaisersbund of Bismarck's day.

NOTE: I'm writing from memory here, so if I have dates confused or wrong, please forgive me.
 
I don't think Marie F was too bothered about the status of the bride.
Most of the 19th Century Empress Consorts were not from the "great" nations but from smaller less influential states.
In fact Alexander II had fixed on Marie of Denmark for his son because its recent defeat in war meant it would not be seen as a threatening or political match (despite the fact her sister was betrothed to the Prince of Wales, and her younger brother was chosen as King of Greece).

There was a bit of a dearth of foreign brides for the three Russian brothers in the 1890's that weren't first cousins.
 
Well I can't see Nicholas pushing the issue and will no doubt attempt to wait it out, so to speak. But I suppose if Alexander and Maria Feodorovna push a different candidate (perhaps Princesse Helene d'Orleans?) and Nicholas still refuses, then he'll be given two choices: play ball or renounce the throne. Either way we avoid that nutjob Alix of Hesse. I actually asked about the possibility of an Empress Helene a while ago if anyone wants the link. As for Stolypin, no clue really. He got his first appointment in 1902 so he still could become a Government minister but I guess it depends on the situation within Alexander III's government.
Nicholas renouncing his claims on the throne might actually be a lot more sensible and letting either George Aleksandrovich or Mikhail Aleksandrovich succeed Alex III. It would also be a good TL material, "I chose love over the throne" kind of thing.

To let Alexander III live longer you need to butterfly Borki railway accident and alcohol problem which when combined led to interstitial nephritis which complications ended up killing the Tsar.
Great physical stress (with possible internal organs traumas) + lot of booze = one very sick man. One of this factors off can buy you a couple more years of life (something like that, just for another giant stature Royal with kidneys-related death, was discussed between me and Constantine for Appolinis et Dianae purpose).

That might easily be done, if the plot to assassinate Alexander III was foiled before it happened.

If we remove the train we'd butterfly the Witte coming into power. And he was a prop of industrialization of Tsarist Russia.

There was another son of Alexander III, Georgy, which was smarter than Nicky and Michail but sadly died from tuberculosis. He was a middle son, so if say Nicky dies in said train accident (falls head forward on metal table or breaks his spine or whatever) Georgy is a heir.

So how will the removal of Witte be of great help for Russia though? Taking him out would have questionable results for whether or not Russia can industrialize.

Reducing the amount of booze past accident will probably make the trick buying 5-6 years of life. As what happened in OTL was the Tsar ignoring doctor's prescriptions and continuing to display his "Russian"-ess with lots of "trademark national drink" aka vodka which is big no in kidney diseases.
Vodka and love of fishing trips did 90% of trick, the train wrecked the rest.

Guys, if you have chronic kidney problems do not drink a lot of strong liquor.
Tell that to Yeltsin. His alcoholism led to his own death though.
 
What happens if Alexander III of Russia doesn't die of nephritis in 1894?

Wow!

This is incredible.

I was just wondering the same thing.

My question was going to be slightly different.

The three what-if's were:

1 - What if Alexander II lives longer and actually introduces the Duma. If he lived long enough for Alexander III to see that a constitutional monarchy isn't really all that bad - it may have made a huge impact.

2 - What if Alexander III lives long enough to give Nicolas II a decent education. I don't think Alexander III was never planning on Nicolas getting a 'governing the country' education he just expected to live longer (I mean, why wouldn't you? - he died at 49 years of age!!!). In 20:20 hindsight it was a huge mistake, so maybe he wouldn't have given his son an education anyway!

Maybe Russia doesn't go to war with Japan in 1904. After all Alexander III was called "the peacemaker of Russia".

I don't think this was for any real diplomatic skill. It just happened that there was a long period of peace. He didn't pick any fights, sure, but he didn't have to negotiate any complex issues that could have lead to another Crimea or what-not.

This in turn leads to more stability in the country and smoother transition to a constitutional (not necessarily democratic) system.

Not if Alexander III had anything to do with it (short of my ATL above). He was dead against the Duma. One of his first acts as the new Tsar was to destroy the plans his father had drawn up.

3 - (this is my big one, which I hope to go somewhere with - still reading up) What if George Alexandrovich had lived??? He was popular. He was attractive. He was intelligent. He was (in essence) everything a King/Tsar/Emperor should be! He also seemed to have vast influence over his brother (even in death). Could his living have saved Russia from the fall of the monarchy and the rise of communism? If it did, how vast would the ramifications be? What happens in WWI/WWII?

Interested in following this for comments. I don't want to derail this thread too much so will post this as an alterative thread. If you wish to comment on my points 1 and 3 please go here. Feel free to respond to point 2 here.

Thanks Will for this thread - very interested. Very subscribed
 
Yeah I completely agree with you about the Comte de Paris. I mean what kind of idiot decides "being Catholic is more important then my daughter's happiness or any political aid for a restoration"? Really a moron.

But I think that the marriage rumors were just that: rumors. There's no real proof and if something like that had taken place one would think that there would be some kind of proof. Diary entries by aristocrats or Grand Dukes mentioning it or the rumors, any kind of recognition of the children later, even if unofficially, by Nicholas II. I mean this is the guy who eventually backed down over EVERY one of the morganatic marriages made by relatives during his reign, so I can't see him not acknowledging any nieces and nephews. Plus there's the fact that the rumors were in American newspapers kinda seals the invalidity of them.
Well, the thing is, at the time Canon Law on the Catholic side heavily discouraged mixed marriage (for example, no Nuptial Mass, no chanting, no Latin, and the wedding would happen in the rectory) and for it to be recognized by the Church, both parties would have to promise that their children would be raised Catholic. And Russian Orthodox canon law was even stricter. But if she converted to Orthodoxy, her immortal soul would be in danger (no-one would know if she would go to Hell, but why risk it?). So from the perspective of a devoutly Catholic parent of the time, that would be one of the worst things that could happen to the young woman. Even today both Churches frown strongly on mixed marriages.
 
More thoughts on point 2

It is a standard misconception that Nicholas II was unprepared for rule and therefore it all went wrong - his education was pretty good though his father did not actively encourage him to take a government rule beyond being on the State Council until quite late.
Nicholas on his accession was only really unprepared for the huge workload that ruling a nation of Russia's size as if it was a private estate entailed.
Any monarch facing that task in the 1890s no matter how bright or well educated would have struggled.

Had Alexander III lived another 15 years or so then Nicholas would have had more awareness of the business of government and in the early days might have been less reliant on his mother and wife than he was in the 1890s in particular. However it is debateable whether it would have avoided disaster even with no war with Japan trouble was brewing.
Another decade of Alexander's hardline policies would have made it worse.


2 - What if Alexander III lives long enough to give Nicolas II a decent education. I don't think Alexander III was never planning on Nicolas getting a 'governing the country' education he just expected to live longer (I mean, why wouldn't you? - he died at 49 years of age!!!). In 20:20 hindsight it was a huge mistake, so maybe he wouldn't have given his son an education anyway!
 
Top