WI: Alcatraz Stays Open

We've had some threads on this topic in the distant past but I was curious since I live vaguely near it and am fascinated by its history.

In brief, what it says on the tin. Alcatraz was closed mainly due to the cost of running the place and the opposition of RFK when he was Attorney General. There are, however, ways that the cost could have been substantially mitigated. If a desalinization plant had been built on the island in the 1950s, maybe as part of the Eisenhower administration's infrastructure projects, it would have reduced costs by a lot. Moving the families of guards off the island also probably would have been helpful; the ferry to and from the island had to make like 20 runs a day just so people could go to and from work, school, errands, etc. and bringing in resources to support all those people added to the expense.

My idea for a POD is this: Frank Morris, the mover and shaker behind the infamous 1962 escape, started serving his sentence IOTL 1956 when he was arrested for bank robbery and given a fourteen year sentence. What if when he was first arrested (I'm sure he would have been held in a regular jail first) he was able to attempt an escape due to some perceived breach, but that effort failed, resulting in him being sent straight to Alcatraz upon conviction/guilty plea. IOTL he only ended up there in the early 1960s, so the whole timeline is moved forward and he executes a roughly similar escape attempt in premise to the 1962 one but is caught again while in the bay. This is all happens in 1957-58, but under the Eisenhower administration which had a much friendlier attitude to keeping the prison open. As a result of the escape, the DOJ makes an assessment of conditions at the prison and decides to renovate it to fix the concrete deterioration and add a desal plant while taking other money-saving measures to make it more cost effective. This investment and no 1962 escape keeps the place open through the RFK years and beyond. In the 1970s and 1980s when there is a gigantic increase in violent crime and politicians embrace tough on crime rhetoric, Alcatraz becomes an emblem of a tough correctional approach, and no one wants to close it for fear of being labeled weak on crime. Some changes are made during this period...greater paranoia about criminals and the need for more prison space leads to the families being moved off the island and the family quarters and communal buildings being bulldozed to build a Secure Housing Unit of the sort standard at all modern prisons. Politicians not wanting to touch the idea of tearing it down could keep it open well into the 2000s, maybe until close to the modern day. I think this all plausible; McNeil Island had all the same issues as Alcatraz and was kept open until 2011.

Anybody got anything to add? How might history have been effected by all of this?
 

BlondieBC

Banned
It remains an expense, but affordable symbol of America's harsh punishment of the 'worst of the worst'. Hard to know how it might be used, but say under Nixon we need to show we were tough on draft doggers, a few high profile ones might be sent there. We will see various Mafia leaders, Drug Lords, and the like will stay there. It is actually a nice perk for the POTUS. It allows him to show he is tough on crime.

So say BlondieBC was made POTUS or FBI director, and BlondieBC wants to show he is "tough" on pedofile priest. I send an Archibishop, two bishops, and five priest to Alcatraz to serve their time. I am now a legendarily "tough guy" on child abuses where if I would have put them IOTL supermax cells they never leave, I am not a "tough guy" but "weak on child abusers".

So to me, Alcatraz has great value and use symbolically, but it other practical benefits are nil. So RFK was both right and wrong to shut down Alcatraz.
 

CalBear

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It was a train wreck by the time it was closed, much less years later. The environment is more or less designed to destroy structures. The actual concrete walls were crumbling, keeping it usable, even as a National Park site, is an unending job.

The oddest thing about the prison is that it was not really that harsh a regime. It was all single cell, so the overcrowding that is far too common (and was very common in the era that the prison was in operation) simply didn't exist. Prisoners were not exactly in a country club, but it was actually no worse, if anything in the upper echelons of Federal prisons. What it had, however, was the fear factor. Criminals were afraid of the place (as is the case today with USP Marion and ADX Florence) partly because of the sort of inmate housed there (mainly individuals who had been "problems" elsewhere in the Federal system, true hard cases, and high profile individuals), partly because it was even more difficult to get visitors than many facilities (Far edge of the country, if you were from New York your family was 3,000 miles away, in an era when the "average Joe" took long trips by train that may as well be Mars), partly because the weather simply SUCKS for much of the year, and lastly because of the direct feeling of isolation; you on a rock in the middle of the SF Bay, you can SEE the City from the yard, see the ships coming and going, etc. and you are stuck in a prison and surrounded by literal shark infested water.

It is a really interesting place to visit. I can remember going on a Bay tour cruise with my family when I was 10 or 11 and going past the island. This was during the Native American Occupation and the most striking thing of the whole trip, besides learning that I had a pretty high tolerance for motion sickness (rough day on the Bay, half the folks on the ferry were a remarkable shade of green) was seeing one of the occupiers standing watch. Truly classic look; Native American guy, LONG hair (even for the late '60's), Jeans, Cowboy boots, Duster, and a lever action Winchester.
 
It was a train wreck by the time it was closed, much less years later. The environment is more or less designed to destroy structures. The actual concrete walls were crumbling, keeping it usable, even as a National Park site, is an unending job.

The oddest thing about the prison is that it was not really that harsh a regime. It was all single cell, so the overcrowding that is far too common (and was very common in the era that the prison was in operation) simply didn't exist. Prisoners were not exactly in a country club, but it was actually no worse, if anything in the upper echelons of Federal prisons. What it had, however, was the fear factor. Criminals were afraid of the place (as is the case today with USP Marion and ADX Florence) partly because of the sort of inmate housed there (mainly individuals who had been "problems" elsewhere in the Federal system, true hard cases, and high profile individuals), partly because it was even more difficult to get visitors than many facilities (Far edge of the country, if you were from New York your family was 3,000 miles away, in an era when the "average Joe" took long trips by train that may as well be Mars), partly because the weather simply SUCKS for much of the year, and lastly because of the direct feeling of isolation; you on a rock in the middle of the SF Bay, you can SEE the City from the yard, see the ships coming and going, etc. and you are stuck in a prison and surrounded by literal shark infested water.

It is a really interesting place to visit. I can remember going on a Bay tour cruise with my family when I was 10 or 11 and going past the island. This was during the Native American Occupation and the most striking thing of the whole trip, besides learning that I had a pretty high tolerance for motion sickness (rough day on the Bay, half the folks on the ferry were a remarkable shade of green) was seeing one of the occupiers standing watch. Truly classic look; Native American guy, LONG hair (even for the late '60's), Jeans, Cowboy boots, Duster, and a lever action Winchester.

I didn't realize the occupiers were armed.

Yeah I've been to Alcatraz a few times. Last was say four years ago. I was astounded by how bad the conditions were for most of the structures. It looked less like a prison and more like say a post apocalyptic wasteland.
 

CalBear

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I didn't realize the occupiers were armed.

Yeah I've been to Alcatraz a few times. Last was say four years ago. I was astounded by how bad the conditions were for most of the structures. It looked less like a prison and more like say a post apocalyptic wasteland.
Oh ya. I'd guess it was a .30-30, but I was just a cub.

The whole incident actually makes for a fascinating contrast to current events. The Native Americans occupied Federal property, at peak with 400 people, including entire families, for 19 months. Nixon's Administration, despite the historic image of him as a serious authoritarian, simply let it burn itself out The Coasties would halfheartedly blockade supplies and the water barge (the Island had no clean water source at the time) and would periodically turn off the electrical supply, but overall just let the whole thing run its course.

Compare that to the ways things have been handled in recent years, even recent decades.
 



Alcatraz was definitely a challenging facility to keep open, but I think McNeil Island, which stayed open as a federal penitentiary until 1981 and as a state prison until 2011, proves it could have been done. It had all the same issues as Alcatraz and then some; the buildings were a generation older, it also sat in a body of salt water, and the elements in the Pacific Northwest are even worse than in the SF Bay. They were still willing to keep it open, though, and put a truckload of money into doing so. Alcatraz’s status as a place inmates feared was really something that made it valued.

It is interesting when I read about it because both the regimen and the inmates were indeed so much laxer than today. No long-term solitary confinement/SHU, being allowed to work and given single cells, etc. Now compare that to ADX Florence...I have no doubt that there are large numbers of inmates in those sorts of facilities who would (probably literally, given the sort of people who tend to end up there) been willing to kill their own mothers if they could be somehow transferred to 1940s-60s era Alcatraz.

The inmates also sound downright civil compared to the ones in the prison gang age. There wasn’t much violence or molestation or anything like that, and critically there weren’t any prison gangs. Compared to modern maximum security general population, it almost seems homey. One of the really interesting things to do is to look at what prisoners who did time both in Alcatraz and in modern maximum security (there are a number, of whom the most famous is undoubtedly Whitey Bulger) say about it. Bulger often writes letters to Alcatraz historians who contact him saying he wishes he was back there and that the regular USP’s these days are way worse; that seems to be the consensus opinion.
 

CalBear

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Alcatraz was definitely a challenging facility to keep open, but I think McNeil Island, which stayed open as a federal penitentiary until 1981 and as a state prison until 2011, proves it could have been done. It had all the same issues as Alcatraz and then some; the buildings were a generation older, it also sat in a body of salt water, and the elements in the Pacific Northwest are even worse than in the SF Bay. They were still willing to keep it open, though, and put a truckload of money into doing so. Alcatraz’s status as a place inmates feared was really something that made it valued.

It is interesting when I read about it because both the regimen and the inmates were indeed so much laxer than today. No long-term solitary confinement/SHU, being allowed to work and given single cells, etc. Now compare that to ADX Florence...I have no doubt that there are large numbers of inmates in those sorts of facilities who would (probably literally, given the sort of people who tend to end up there) been willing to kill their own mothers if they could be somehow transferred to 1940s-60s era Alcatraz.

The inmates also sound downright civil compared to the ones in the prison gang age. There wasn’t much violence or molestation or anything like that, and critically there weren’t any prison gangs. Compared to modern maximum security general population, it almost seems homey. One of the really interesting things to do is to look at what prisoners who did time both in Alcatraz and in modern maximum security (there are a number, of whom the most famous is undoubtedly Whitey Bulger) say about it. Bulger often writes letters to Alcatraz historians who contact him saying he wishes he was back there and that the regular USP’s these days are way worse; that seems to be the consensus opinion.
The condition of Alcatraz's concrete was so bad that it led directly to the final major escape attempt (the one immortalized in Escape from Alcatraz) from the Island. The concrete was so degraded that the inmates were able to chip it out, mainly with spoons stolen from the mess hall. This would, of course, be less of an issue today since many facilities use really cheap plastic sporks.
 
The condition of Alcatraz's concrete was so bad that it led directly to the final major escape attempt (the one immortalized in Escape from Alcatraz) from the Island. The concrete was so degraded that the inmates were able to chip it out, mainly with spoons stolen from the mess hall. This would, of course, be less of an issue today since many facilities use really cheap plastic sporks.

I think these days you could probably go through the concrete at Alcatraz with one of those really cheap plastic sporks.
 
The condition of Alcatraz's concrete was so bad that it led directly to the final major escape attempt (the one immortalized in Escape from Alcatraz) from the Island. The concrete was so degraded that the inmates were able to chip it out, mainly with spoons stolen from the mess hall. This would, of course, be less of an issue today since many facilities use really cheap plastic sporks.

Yeah, it definitely had reached a critical point by the early 1960s. It depends. The concrete infrastructure in sea walls and levees is continually maintained to keep it very tough, and McNeil Island was restored after the state put like 100 million IIRC over thirty years into keeping it running. Do you think anything could have been done to restore Alcatraz if the will had been there to do it? The basic structure is still solid since it’s still safe to walk in today, so you probably would have just needed replace the concrete blocks lining the walls of the cells with new ones to make sure they couldn’t be tunneled through.
 
Alaska corrections thought of using an abandoned military base in the Aleutiansfor maximum security. It was widely regarded but studies showed it would have been to expensive to run.
 
Alaska corrections thought of using an abandoned military base in the Aleutiansfor maximum security. It was widely regarded but studies showed it would have been to expensive to run.

If your going for deep isolation why not use some island in the North Marianas or maybe Wake. Even if they break out of the prison it's a couple thousand mile paddle to anywhere at all.

Though a prison in the Aleutians or maybe deep in northern Alaska sounds appealing.
 
If your going for deep isolation why not use some island in the North Marianas or maybe Wake. Even if they break out of the prison it's a couple thousand mile paddle to anywhere at all.

Though a prison in the Aleutians or maybe deep in northern Alaska sounds appealing.
A thought that occurs to me re building maximum security prisons in remote and / or isolated areas:

-I'd be concerned about the costs involved in preventing "groups of bad people" from attacking the prison to free the inmates.

Guantanamo bay presumably doesn't need to worry to much about that being an active military base :) Trying to replicate that level of security in a newly built facility in an issolated location might be rather expensive.
 
A thought that occurs to me re building maximum security prisons in remote and / or isolated areas:

-I'd be concerned about the costs involved in preventing "groups of bad people" from attacking the prison to free the inmates.

Guantanamo bay presumably doesn't need to worry to much about that being an active military base :) Trying to replicate that level of security in a newly built facility in an issolated location might be rather expensive.

Gitmo also benefits from the US political relationship with Cuba. Namely that for decades the border between the base and the rest of Cuba was highly militarized and fortified.
 
A thought that occurs to me re building maximum security prisons in remote and / or isolated areas:

-I'd be concerned about the costs involved in preventing "groups of bad people" from attacking the prison to free the inmates.

Guantanamo bay presumably doesn't need to worry to much about that being an active military base :) Trying to replicate that level of security in a newly built facility in an issolated location might be rather expensive.

The costs needed to keep the place supplied and to attract qualified people to work there would be very high. It would have to be a self contained town.
 
The Alaska maximum security prison is on a bay near Seward I believe. A friend in Juneau who was deputy director for prisons said some guys escaped and wandered in mosquito infested forest for a day and were in very miserable shape when they turned themselves in.

I was at a NATO meeting held at Valcartier near Quebec. A friend and I were having lunch when a LTC joined us who was annoyed with Canadian firearms laws.

He felt that criminal offenses in connection with a firearm were to lenient. “ They are sent to Club Med!”

His answer was
“First offense of violent crime with a firearm, they are transported by helicopters north of Cold Lake in Black Fly season and dropped off nude with a compass and map 100 km from a road. If they make it back, their attitude should be forever changed.”

If not,
“Second offense, same scenario, February.”
 
The Alaska maximum security prison is on a bay near Seward I believe. A friend in Juneau who was deputy director for prisons said some guys escaped and wandered in mosquito infested forest for a day and were in very miserable shape when they turned themselves in.

I was at a NATO meeting held at Valcartier near Quebec. A friend and I were having lunch when a LTC joined us who was annoyed with Canadian firearms laws.

He felt that criminal offenses in connection with a firearm were to lenient. “ They are sent to Club Med!”

His answer was
“First offense of violent crime with a firearm, they are transported by helicopters north of Cold Lake in Black Fly season and dropped off nude with a compass and map 100 km from a road. If they make it back, their attitude should be forever changed.”

If not,
“Second offense, same scenario, February.”

Wait, what's nationality of this LTC?
 
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