WI: Ainu Civilization

What if the Ainu of Hokkaido, via Japanese influence, were to develop in a more agricultural, urbanised and ultimately perhaps even quasi-unified (in a dark ages Ireland sort of way is perhaps the best we'll get) direction?

The Japanese would of course likely still come along and conquer them when they get the time- they'd probally do it earlier than OTL in fact with Hokkaido being a far better target- but with a pre-existing idea of nationhood and larger native population...it could all go rather Ireland.
 
How much did Ireland restrict British imperial ambitions?

I'd guess: Hokkaido at worst becomes another territory like Okinawa. No measurable impact until the Seventies.
 
What if the Ainu of Hokkaido, via Japanese influence, were to develop in a more agricultural, urbanised and ultimately perhaps even quasi-unified (in a dark ages Ireland sort of way is perhaps the best we'll get) direction?

The Japanese would of course likely still come along and conquer them when they get the time- they'd probally do it earlier than OTL in fact with Hokkaido being a far better target- but with a pre-existing idea of nationhood and larger native population...it could all go rather Ireland.

I believe a part of the issue was that Japan's agricultural package didn't work very effectively even in the far north of Honshu. The problem was even worse once you got to Hokkaido, so there was a limit to what could be done. What you'd need is availability of better cold weather crops, and you'd need it to occur such that the Ainu get them about the same time the Japanese do. If the Japanese get them early - the natural outcome - they'll just swamp the Ainu like they did further south when they brought rice over.
 
Well, IOTL the Japanese did'nt just walk over the Ainu, and the Ainu themselves were present in Northern Honshū itself (rather than just being in Hokkaido) for a good amount of time.


If the Ainu can develop into a group comparable to Japan, then I foresee one of three things happening;

1. Japan becomes split into an Ainu Nation-state and a Japanese Nation-State.

2. They eventually unite to form a biethnic state.

3. One of them conquers the other and you have a situation where the culture and language of the victor is forced upon the loser.
 
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Well, IOTL the Japanese did'nt just walk over the Ainu, and the Ainu themselves were present Northern Honshū itself (rather than just being in Hokkaido) for a good amount of time.


If the Ainu can develop into a group comparable to Japan, then I foresee one of three things happening;

1. Japan becomes split into an Ainu Nation-state and a Japanese Nation-State.

2. They unite to form a biethnic state.

3. One of them conquers the other and you have a situation where the culture and language of the victor is forced upon the loser.

It is possible for Japan to have a Japonic speaking but racially Emishi/Ainu state.
 
I believe a part of the issue was that Japan's agricultural package didn't work very effectively even in the far north of Honshu. The problem was even worse once you got to Hokkaido, so there was a limit to what could be done. What you'd need is availability of better cold weather crops, and you'd need it to occur such that the Ainu get them about the same time the Japanese do. If the Japanese get them early - the natural outcome - they'll just swamp the Ainu like they did further south when they brought rice over.
Rice doesn't grow so well up there but wheat does doesn't it?
And Hokkaido is big cattle country iirc.

Well, IOTL the Japanese did'nt just walk over the Ainu, and the Ainu themselves were present Northern Honshū itself (rather than just being in Hokkaido) for a good amount of time.


If the Ainu can develop into a group comparable to Japan, then I foresee one of three things happening;

1. Japan becomes split into an Ainu Nation-state and a Japanese Nation-State.

2. They eventually unite to form a biethnic state.

3. One of them conquers the other and you have a situation where the culture and language of the victor is forced upon the loser.

True on the Ainu being elsewhere earlier. The Japanese walking over them...they kind of did IMO, they just didn't see any reason to conquer and incorporate Hokkaido prior to the 19th century.

3 is what I'd see happening, a slight Britain-Ireland analogue. Japan increasingly gaining ever more traction over the Ainu, maybe the emperor being recognised as emperor of the Ainu too and then come meiji (assuming butterfly net) Hokkaido being fully incorporated...but for rumblings on independance to be there.
 
True on the Ainu being elsewhere earlier. The Japanese walking over them...they kind of did IMO, they just didn't see any reason to conquer and incorporate Hokkaido prior to the 19th century.

They did'nt actually permanently control Northern Honshū until sometime between 1300-1400, and at two different points before then they were actually pushed back for a long while before being able to conquer the territory.
 
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I did some Ainu/Emishi research, one of the things that I came across was that they were good stock raisers. In particular, the point was made that they were the ones that traded the Japanese the horses used for samurai archery. There's also the initial war against the Emishi in the 700s. An issue was the unified Emishi became divided because there were too many groups that didn't like having one person in charge so of course they slowly went under.

My theory was that managing to change these events while also making the Japanese even more prone to fighting each other (competing members of the imperial family with clients perhaps?) could lead to a surviving northern state at least for a time, especially if it formed trade links with the Asian mainland to obtain more of the things it needed that it historically traded with the southern Japanese.
 
I did some Ainu/Emishi research, one of the things that I came across was that they were good stock raisers. In particular, the point was made that they were the ones that traded the Japanese the horses used for samurai archery. There's also the initial war against the Emishi in the 700s. An issue was the unified Emishi became divided because there were too many groups that didn't like having one person in charge so of course they slowly went under.

Hrm. That's a strong parallel, not just to Ireland, but also to how the Anglosaxons conquered Britain in the first place.

My theory was that managing to change these events while also making the Japanese even more prone to fighting each other (competing members of the imperial family with clients perhaps?) could lead to a surviving northern state at least for a time, especially if it formed trade links with the Asian mainland to obtain more of the things it needed that it historically traded with the southern Japanese.

I think you want the Lithuanian model. They were probably the most successful "backwards" people in maintaining independence in a big way. It's worth remembering that they ended up with the nobility all speaking Polish and steadily had their empire devoured by Russia, so don't expect this to be even another Korea or Taiwan. If they end up like Bhutan or (gasp) Nepal, that's very much a success. It is possible for a single leader to appear, but you really need to work at it. A great man is not enough to get the job done - no matter what Charles Martel and Charlemagne did, an empire that size in the place they built it was coming apart.
 
Hrm. That's a strong parallel, not just to Ireland, but also to how the Anglosaxons conquered Britain in the first place.



I think you want the Lithuanian model. They were probably the most successful "backwards" people in maintaining independence in a big way. It's worth remembering that they ended up with the nobility all speaking Polish and steadily had their empire devoured by Russia, so don't expect this to be even another Korea or Taiwan. If they end up like Bhutan or (gasp) Nepal, that's very much a success. It is possible for a single leader to appear, but you really need to work at it. A great man is not enough to get the job done - no matter what Charles Martel and Charlemagne did, an empire that size in the place they built it was coming apart.
Historically a number of the Emishi intermarried with the various Japanese who came north so that those on the big island no longer viewed themselves differently and the same process was slowly repeated in south Hokkaido when the Emishi became the Ainu/Ezo. At least, that's how I understand it. The other thing is that the Japanese government only really clamped down on them because they were afraid Russia was going to get there first. If there is no real threat, the area may continue to be one of limited interest. The main problem to preventing development of an urban society is that it is difficult to grow rice and get iron. It's not like Japan is a great source for iron, but it was better than Hokkaido. Those dependencies need to be reduced somehow. Are there other crops that could work in Hokkaido that medieval era Ainu/Emishi could get? Still at most this would result in a Hokkaido doing a balancing act against Japanese control until an era when it's no longer in vogue to annex people to get eventual independence.

I'm not tremendously familiar with Lithuania, most of my exposure was in TW:Kingdoms or wiki, so if you could expand on what you mean by that? Just the general history of their conversion? Also what do you mean by Bhutan or Nepal? A small state that could very well be just another province of their bigger neighbor but managed to survive?

My thought was actually to have a Japanese over-class but one that was at odds with the rest of the country (who were fighting each other) owing only a tenuous loyalty to the central government. Add the dissident imperial family member, perhaps one who could make claims to be the "rightful" emperor to provide a feudal center not based in Kyoto or wherever. This still leaves problems with resources however.
 
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I'm not tremendously familiar with Lithuania, most of my exposure was in TW:Kingdoms or wiki, so if you could expand on what you mean by that? Just the general history of their conversion? Also what do you mean by Bhutan or Nepal? A small state that could very well be just another province of their bigger neighbor but managed to survive?

It was a small, tribal zone caught between expanding powers on all sides. Poland and Russia were reasserting themselves after the Mongols, gradually becoming serious powers again, while Germans and Scandinavians appeared from the opposite direction, settlers and semi-genocidal crusaders. It was in terms of technology, economy, and geography quite simply disadvantaged. In that sense it's position was comparable to that of the Irish.

Yet Lithuania managed to expand to conquer roughly a third of contemporary Russia and by quickly marrying into union with the Kingdom of Poland kept that control for centuries. Naturally, that union left the much smaller and poorer Lithuania at a critical disadvantage (hence the nobility all ending up essentially Polish), but it was still a tremendous accomplishment.

For our purposes, a unified Ainu state would be unlikely to remain unified for long unless it engaged in a political alliance/union with a Japanese entity in the north. Having entered into such a union, however, would give the Japanese statelet a level of status it could never have on its own. Where without it would be merely one kingdom among dozens, poorer than most, with the Ainu connection it has practical strength and an ideological justification for independence from the rest of Japan. If the relationship becomes traditional and accepted, even conquest of the Japanese half by the southern Japanese would be temporary because the OTL logistic issues would preclude extending the same level of control to Ainu lands.

Essentially we're talking about Scotland. The country is mostly northern Englishmen, but its existence and much of its identity is derived from the Highlands. The far north fails to share either a language or economy with the south, and is dependent on it, but still Scotland survived the whole of the Middle Ages because the two were successfully convinced that they shared a national identity.

I'd argue that the Ainu could, with a dominant Japanese partner, play the role of Japan's Scotland. Genetically and linguistically it would improve their position above that of OTL, but at the end of the day they're still hanging out in the equivalent to the Highlands and Orkney.
 
I was thinking of Western Japan being annexed by the Mongols then the court moves to Eastern Japan, I think the result might be racially ainu but japonic speaking state with an Ainu speaking Minority.
 
I believe a part of the issue was that Japan's agricultural package didn't work very effectively even in the far north of Honshu. The problem was even worse once you got to Hokkaido, so there was a limit to what could be done. What you'd need is availability of better cold weather crops, and you'd need it to occur such that the Ainu get them about the same time the Japanese do. If the Japanese get them early - the natural outcome - they'll just swamp the Ainu like they did further south when they brought rice over.

The main problem isn't with the crop package, but with the time the Ainu gained access to it. Northern Honshu and Hokkaido are quite similar climate-wise to North Korea, and the same agricultural package seems to have worked in Korea and works very well in northern Honshu today. Although rice may not grow as well in the north, other grains like barley, millet, and buckwheat, which were all part of the original package, grow very well. Until very recently, rice was not the only grain eaten by most of the population. Although in Japan, millet and barley are no longer big parts of the cuisine and buckwheat is limited to soba noodles, Korean cuisine still places a much bigger emphasis on a variety of grains.
 
The main problem isn't with the crop package, but with the time the Ainu gained access to it. Northern Honshu and Hokkaido are quite similar climate-wise to North Korea, and the same agricultural package seems to have worked in Korea and works very well in northern Honshu today. Although rice may not grow as well in the north, other grains like barley, millet, and buckwheat, which were all part of the original package, grow very well. Until very recently, rice was not the only grain eaten by most of the population. Although in Japan, millet and barley are no longer big parts of the cuisine and buckwheat is limited to soba noodles, Korean cuisine still places a much bigger emphasis on a variety of grains.

I hear you, although I think it's important to keep in mind that virtually no crop in the world gives the same returns as rice. That will still leave a much smaller Ainu population.

So.... Perhaps the solution is a botched early attempt at colonization from Korea or Japan. Too few settlers arrive to overrun the place, but enough to firmly establish the crops, which then diffuse out to neighboring Ainu tribes. The colonists end up absorbed through intermarriage.

If this were to occur in Hokkaido early enough, it could make all the difference.
 
hmm, Hokkaido as Scotland is an interesting idea.
The trouble I see there though is Japan's isolation from the outside world. Even when it wasn't isoalting itself it really didn't have all that many neighbours, there was a totally different political situation over in east asia with uber China and then a few minor polities which were mostly just Chinese vassals as opposed to Europe where there was a definite idea of different nations, French influence in England, etc...
 
I was thinking of Western Japan being annexed by the Mongols then the court moves to Eastern Japan, I think the result might be racially ainu but japonic speaking state with an Ainu speaking Minority.

Given the Japanese islands are'nt exactly that wide, Japan really could'nt be divided along an East-West Axis, now a North-South one, yeah, but that's about it.
 
Given the Japanese islands are'nt exactly that wide, Japan really could'nt be divided along an East-West Axis, now a North-South one, yeah, but that's about it.

Eastern Japan is basically North Japan because the northern part is in the East, the same is for the Western part of Japan is South Japan, I just referred Southern Japan as Western Japan and Northern Japan as Eastern Japan.
 
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