WI/AHC Portugal retains Brazil

Removing Napoleon, or at least his invasion of Portugal, could allow the Portuguese to keep Brazil for longer, at least.
 
Removing Napoleon, or at least his invasion of Portugal, could allow the Portuguese to keep Brazil for longer, at least.
I think its the opposite, the invasion led the king to flee to Brazil.

This is sort of the Britain keeps India thing, in the modern age any political entity consisting of Portugal and Brazil will be dominated by Brazil in every way.
 
It's not totally impossible, but it would end up being dominate by Brazilian culture eventually. Unless the population of Portugal explodes to keep up with Brazil, Brazil will eventually become independent of the dominant partner. This is something the Brits eventually realised with India. Your best hope is a dominion status Brazil.

A nation that is independent financially and domestically, but still follows Portugal's lead in international politics. This would still give the Brazilians and the Portuguese what they want.
 
Is it logistically possible to have a pairlament in Lisbon with PMs from Brazil? I mean that's the only way to pull it of. And would it help if Pedro I/V gets the Throne before he declares Independence?
 
If the Portuguese government flees to Brazil with Napoleon invading, is it possible they just make Brazil part of Portugal proper? The states or whatever they're called just made into the system Portugal had back home?
 
If the Portuguese government flees to Brazil with Napoleon invading, is it possible they just make Brazil part of Portugal proper? The states or whatever they're called just made into the system Portugal had back home?
It was. Or rather, both Portugal and Brazil became part of the same united Kingdom with theoretically none being a colony of the other.
 
Is it logistically possible to have a pairlament in Lisbon with PMs from Brazil? I mean that's the only way to pull it of. And would it help if Pedro I/V gets the Throne before he declares Independence?
Is it logistically possible to have the capital of the Kingdom in Lisbon and the headship of government restricted to Brazilians? Sure. Is it reasonably fair? I don't think so.
 
Pedro I and Joao VI totally muffed the opportunity to create a lasting partnership. That partnership had major obstacles, but that doesn't automatically doom it to failure. Neither king was much of anything to write home about. Joao's shining moment was fleeing to Brazil and trying to run an empire from there. He completely muffed doing so, staying too long and abandoning Portugal for too long. Pedro's shining moment was breaking Brazil free from Portugal relatively blood free. Other than that, both were lackluster leaders who ultimately left their countries in worse shape than they took over. Pedro was particularly worse out of the two. He mucked up Portugal by refusing to return there when Joao wanted him to, and then he mucked up Brazil by leaving for Portugal. He had almost no political acumen. Joao had plenty of political acumen, but didn't really feel like using it unless forced to.

Now, IF the two of them had half a brain between them, they could have cooperated with one of them leading Brazil and one leading Portugal and looking to remain in union. Long term it would have been a struggle, but there really is no reason (other than the two being bad leaders) the union couldn't have lasted well beyond what it did.

I'm being a bit harsh, but the time called for leadership, and neither were up to the task.
 
Pedro I and Joao VI totally muffed the opportunity to create a lasting partnership. That partnership had major obstacles, but that doesn't automatically doom it to failure. Neither king was much of anything to write home about. Joao's shining moment was fleeing to Brazil and trying to run an empire from there. He completely muffed doing so, staying too long and abandoning Portugal for too long. Pedro's shining moment was breaking Brazil free from Portugal relatively blood free. Other than that, both were lackluster leaders who ultimately left their countries in worse shape than they took over. Pedro was particularly worse out of the two. He mucked up Portugal by refusing to return there when Joao wanted him to, and then he mucked up Brazil by leaving for Portugal. He had almost no political acumen. Joao had plenty of political acumen, but didn't really feel like using it unless forced to.

Now, IF the two of them had half a brain between them, they could have cooperated with one of them leading Brazil and one leading Portugal and looking to remain in union. Long term it would have been a struggle, but there really is no reason (other than the two being bad leaders) the union couldn't have lasted well beyond what it did.

I'm being a bit harsh, but the time called for leadership, and neither were up to the task.
A bit harsh indeed. I'd agree they lost opportunities but:
- for Pedro, leading the liberal camp in the civil war goes to his credit. Being fooled by his brother in the first place goes against him, though.
- the behavior of the Portuguese Members of Parliament, totally unwilling to compromise and looking down on their Brazilian colleagues is according to me the breaking point of the union. Sure, one first approach to save the union is to crush them but it's a good preview of how much opposition we'll see in Portugal for giving away any sort of control to Brazil. A bloodless break was the cleanest way out, even though I know you just consider it to be just a vanity move of Pedro. :) IMHO with a PoD in 1822 any more unionist choices by Pedro or João would derail in a Brazilian War of Independence and will end in a fragmented Brazil.
 
Part of my thinking is that a proactive Joao heads off the cataclysm of 1820 and the resultant actions. by remaining in Brazil, and/or not sending Pedro back (which he tried to do belatedly, but Pedro said no), he basically abdicated all power, and could no longer guide events.

Both rulers are known more for retaining/taking/regaining power than any real ruling prowess.

One of my big What If's is WI Joao had been a decent statesman (or if the older brother had lived)? Could he have avoided the pitfalls that Portugal went through from 1790's - 1830? (yeah, he was poisoned in 1826, but his actions/inactions are really at the core of everything going out several years). War of the Pyrenees, War of the oranges, Invasion in 1807 - all events that are intertwined, and I don't really think much of Portugal's behavior throughout, and Joao was the leader during that entire period.
 
Part of my thinking is that a proactive Joao heads off the cataclysm of 1820 and the resultant actions. by remaining in Brazil, and/or not sending Pedro back (which he tried to do belatedly, but Pedro said no), he basically abdicated all power, and could no longer guide events.

Both rulers are known more for retaining/taking/regaining power than any real ruling prowess.

One of my big What If's is WI Joao had been a decent statesman (or if the older brother had lived)? Could he have avoided the pitfalls that Portugal went through from 1790's - 1830? (yeah, he was poisoned in 1826, but his actions/inactions are really at the core of everything going out several years). War of the Pyrenees, War of the oranges, Invasion in 1807 - all events that are intertwined, and I don't really think much of Portugal's behavior throughout, and Joao was the leader during that entire period.
João's laissez-faire is indeed very irritating, to say the least.
But what were the faults of the Portuguese political decisions in the War of Pyrenees, War of the Oranges and the 1807 invasion?
 
To be fair, Portugal was between a rock and a hard place, having to placate their "ally" Britain who bullied Portugal horribly, threatening to separate Brazil unless they toed the line. And, they ran afoul of France, who always sought to punish Portugal for toeing the line with Britain.

The war of the pyrenees, IMO, is what sealed their fate. They half ass joined a half ass war (part of the reason Spain lost was they didn't commit to the war, but treated it as a sort of side show). As a result, they were abandoned by Spain and left in no man's land with France. They got nominal support from Britain, but were mostly used by Britain and this led directly to the War of the Oranges. They only survived that fiasco because Godoy correctly saw that it wasn't wise to let the French get involved, so he called the war off after a swift blow to the nose before the French could get their army in place. Portugal was totally hung out to dry by Britain in that affair. Then, after a brief period of closing ports to Britain, they eagerly jumped back into Britain's arms after Trafalgar. again, to be fair, I'm sure Britain put some heavy pressure on, but it remains that Joao's attempt to be 'neutral' catered heavily to Britain, which served to tick off Napoleon, which led to the 1807 invasion. Throughout the entire period, there was minimal attempt to create anything remotely resembling a credible military deterrent.

Basically, Portugal's diplomatic and military preparedness was lacking, to say the least. As a result, they were viewed as a joke in all regards, by pretty much everyone. Joao depended on a Britain that left him high and dry in the War of the Oranges, and in 1807 (only getting involved in extorting Brazil privileges in exchange for allowing the crown to flee, and in military action after Spain proved a worthy adversary to France. Had Spain proved otherwise, or Nap not invaded Spain, Portugal was completely hosed).
 
To be fair, Portugal was between a rock and a hard place, having to placate their "ally" Britain who bullied Portugal horribly, threatening to separate Brazil unless they toed the line. And, they ran afoul of France, who always sought to punish Portugal for toeing the line with Britain.
Basically this. During that specific period (<1808) I suppose I couldn't have fared much better if given the reins of Portugal.

Sure, with hindsight, Portugal shouldn't bandwagon in the war against the French Republic. But looking at how many fronts the French had, the theatre seemed safely far. The way Godoy's Spain backstabbed Portugal is still an incredible course of events.

After that, Portugal got helplessly exposed to the Franco-Spaniards and the British behaving as they were, there's no way I can find a better way to go by those years.
 
Top