WI/AHC One last gun line battle...

This is an idea I had a while ago. It sprung off my Eagle of the Andes TL, which is still being rewritten, when I realized that in 82-83 there was a real possibility for there to be a ‘last gun battle’ around Cape Horn. The General Belgrano against her sister ship the Prat, or the Prat and Almirante Latorre, for a cruiser battle for warship nerds to debate endlessly. Given that I started with this idea, I’m less certain about the mechanics of getting there. This rough sketch is my attempt to get plausibility feed back, and alternate ideas for how to get to the gun battle.



So with that in mind, feel free to poke holes in this, or say why this element or explanation doesn’t work. As I said this is rough, and putting it up here is meant as a plausibility check more then anything.



May 1st, 1982, ARA 25 de Mayo manages to launch all 12 of her A4Q Skyhawk’s at task force 317.8. Following this launch as she turns away the HMS Splendid puts three torpedoes into the carrier breaking her back. With no carrier to return to the attack plains press their attack beyond any reasonable expectation heavily damaging both the Hermes and Invincible. Without air cover operation Corporate is called off and task force 317.1 turns back to Great Britain.



May 2nd, The conservative government falls. Margret Thatcher is in the fight of her political life, aided by Labors complete miss read of the public’s mood. (Not sure if Thatcher would survive or not, but the end result is that a conservative government is returned, based on a campaign promise of rearmament and restoring Britain to its place in the world. Elements of the SAS, SBS, and RAF are dispatched to Chile in secret, as her majesties government has no intention of allowing this travesty to stand. War is officially debated in the house of commons, and declared.)



May 15th No. 51 Squadron is moved from RAF Wyton to Chamiza Base Peurto Montt in preparation for the operations coming up next year. The squadron promptly begins to survey the Chile/Argentine border as well as launching missions to recon the Falklands.



At some point during this time British influence is brought to bear on Europe to allow the Chilean government to buys arms. It is understood that this is a quid pro que for the lack of Chilean protest over the British decision to keep the Norfolk and use it. As a result of this pressure France consents to selling the Chileans modern Exocet SSM’s and fulfilling the Chilean armies order of 50 AMX-30 tanks, and a large number of Milan ATGM. Italy allowed the Chileans to buy more Oto Melara Model 56 howitzers and a substantial amount of ammunition. Along with these purchases a substantial amount of spare parts are purchased bringing the serviceability of Chile’s military to their highest state of serviceability and readiness in years, at least since before the 70 election. The Pinochet regime attempts to make major purchases but nothing is available before the projected start of the Chilean/Argentine war. Still Mirage F1’s and Jaguar GR1A’s were ordered, along with destroyers and submarines, the jets were projected to begin delivery in 83 or during the fighting, while the ships would be delivered by 85 to 90 or after the war was expected to be over.



June 20th, one of 51 Squadrons Nimrod R1’s goes down on the Argentine side of the Andes border. The Chilean army succeeds in rescuing the surviving crew before the argentine army gets ahold of them, but it makes the fact that the Chileans have embraced the British obvious for all to see. The Galtieri Junta swiftly responds by engaging in a war of words with the Chileans and attempting to isolate them from any South American support in hopes of convincing the Chileans to back down. This has the opposite effect, causing Pinochet to cling to all the closer to Britain as well as pealing the Ecuadorian and Brazilians away from their position of Argentine leaning neutrality. Especially as Peru has begun to press for support in their territorial disputes with Chile and Ecuador.



By September the war of words has escalated to the point where both Chile and Argentina are preparing their fleets for a confrontation around the beagle channel or the horn. In August Argentina returned to a war footing, similar to the one they had in 78 before operation Sombero was called off. With the popes attempts at diplomacy falling on deaf ears Chile follows in September. By October both fleets have moved the bulk of their vessels south. Chile retains the O’Higgins and her support vessels at Iquique in order to intimidate Peru. Despite her dilapidated material condition she is still capable of serving one last time as a Potemkin ship, a maraskrova to convince the Peruvians that if they try anything the Chileans have at least the naval forces to counter them. The two fleets maneuver against each other but shots are not fired despite the tension.



By November the Chilean navy felt its position was good enough to begin operations. They felt that there was a need to short circuit the assault that they knew was coming. With the Army on high alert, the fleet sallied forth. On the 3rd the battle began, lasting until the 6th.
 
I had actually forgotten that they were still in good shape :coldsweat:. The way I have things set up atm, they would have been in the process of reactivation, and the Brits would have no interest in selling any of their ships to anyone. Without a carrier they would not be willing to come in under a land air umbrella... so the combatants would be the Argentine's and Chileans.
 
Knocking out both Hermes and Invincible is really, really hard - Woodward was well aware that without them the war was over, so deployed his task force so that you had to get through everything else to sink them. That's why the Atlantic Conveyor went down in OTL for instance - she was a big radar target sailing up-threat of the carriers, and why Randy Andy was flying around next to the carriers with a blip-enhance transponder on. That makes it really hard to see both carriers being sunk or crippled in a single strike by a dozen Skyhawks - at best you'd knock out one deck and the war would still be on.

Having said that, a gun battle with Blake is quite plausible IMHO. Blake wasn't decommissioned until December 1979, and they tried to get her back in service for the Falklands war. She was refitted in 1979 at Rosyth and as I understand it was mostly paid off because of a lack of manpower in the RN - so if for whatever reason the manning situation is a little better then I could see her still being in service in 1982. That would mean she's part of the task force, with a plausible chance of her getting the chance to engage Belgrano.
 
I think the main problem is how to not have the SSNs get in the way of a surface battle ?

Just have Argentina fight Chile rather than the UK is far more likely to lead to a surface battle.

Or what about an Iowa v Sverdlov-class for a real last gun battle to start the end of the world, you could do it in 1990?
 
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How would a number of Mk6 Twin Automatic 4.5" or Mk8 Single Automatic 4.5" armed ships fare vs the Gen B?
Badly I would guess, apart from the big question of fire control (and ECM) you are talking,
1 x 4.5" x 46 lbs. (20.9 kg) 26 rpm v 15 x 6" x 105 lbs. (47.6 kg) x 10rpm
26 shells total weight 1,196lb v 150 shells 15,750lb
 
"One last gunline battle" writ large.

This is a wild one, more suitable to the writert's forum than to post 1900, right up there with my personal favorite, "The fireflies of Port Stanley," which I usually read again every year or so:
Argentina keeps its two battleships, and keeps them semi up to date.
Britain hangs on to Vanguard.

The gun battle is 2 vs 1, but the British ship is much more powerful. Season with cruisers and destroyers to taste.
 
The gun battle is 2 vs 1, but the British ship is much more powerful. Season with cruisers and destroyers to taste.
I like but its an execution not a battle 24x12" v 8x15" doesn't look that bad until you realize that the elevation is 15deg v 30deg.
With Vanguards speed and radar the 12" ships never get inside firing range and simply die....
 
I think a better POD would be the British get wind of the invasion and reinforce the Island with a company of Paras and tell the Argentines that 2 'Boats' are operating in the region (a great fekkin lie) - the Junta realising that surprise is lost 'and spooked' by the knowledge that some one leaked the plan call off the invasion and the ARA returns to port.

In the following weeks more troops and equipment arrive from Britain effectively making the island unassailable.

At the same time many of the Nations supplying weapons and arms to Argentina - nearly all of whom are allies of the UK - stop supplying them after pressure from the UK.

Britain improves its relations with Chile and offers to source and supply them with newer weapons including tanks (Centurions) and AA Missiles (Rapier), and there is talk of selling them reconditioned Hunters (Britian also uses this as a carrot/stick)

In July of 1982 a serious fire breaks out on the Aircraft carrier Veinticinco de Mayo gutting much of the ships hanger and destroying or badly damaging 5 of the ships Skyhawks and 2 of the S2 Trackers.

(In the intervening years many claims are made as to the cause of the fire - 'British Pirates', Communists, 'Brazilian Pirates' etc but its likely that the poor material condition of the ship at the time coupled with poor morale among the largely conscripted crew was probably the cause)

Desperate for a victory - any victory - with increasing civil unrest the Junta looks to its Western/Southern Neighbour (who it can see is rearming) the Junta dust's of its previous plans for Operación Soberanía and fabricates a Casus Belli and fighting breaks out at the end of the Summer near the end of 1982 which bogs down with significant casualties on both sides.

The Chilean Marines attempt a sea borne landing at to trap 3rd Mech infantry Brigade of the Argentine Army who had invaded into Chilean Tierra Del Fuego (South of Lago Fagano) before getting bogged down around Yendegaia.

The Chilean Marine Rgt is supported by the Cruiser O’Higgins and the scene is set for a clash near the Island of Nueva when the Chilean Airforce spots a battle group centered on the General Belgrano approaching the Beagle channel
 

James G

Gone Fishin'
I think a better POD would be the British get wind of the invasion and reinforce the Island with a company of Paras and tell the Argentines that 2 'Boats' are operating in the region (a great fekkin lie) - the Junta realising that surprise is lost 'and spooked' by the knowledge that some one leaked the plan call off the invasion and the ARA returns to port.

In the following weeks more troops and equipment arrive from Britain effectively making the island unassailable.

At the same time many of the Nations supplying weapons and arms to Argentina - nearly all of whom are allies of the UK - stop supplying them after pressure from the UK.

Britain improves its relations with Chile and offers to source and supply them with newer weapons including tanks (Centurions) and AA Missiles (Rapier), and there is talk of selling them reconditioned Hunters (Britian also uses this as a carrot/stick)

In July of 1982 a serious fire breaks out on the Aircraft carrier Veinticinco de Mayo gutting much of the ships hanger and destroying or badly damaging 5 of the ships Skyhawks and 2 of the S2 Trackers.

(In the intervening years many claims are made as to the cause of the fire - 'British Pirates', Communists, 'Brazilian Pirates' etc but its likely that the poor material condition of the ship at the time coupled with poor morale among the largely conscripted crew was probably the cause)

Desperate for a victory - any victory - with increasing civil unrest the Junta looks to its Western/Southern Neighbour (who it can see is rearming) the Junta dust's of its previous plans for Operación Soberanía and fabricates a Casus Belli and fighting breaks out at the end of the Summer near the end of 1982 which bogs down with significant casualties on both sides.

The Chilean Marines attempt a sea borne landing at to trap 3rd Mech infantry Brigade of the Argentine Army who had invaded into Chilean Tierra Del Fuego (South of Lago Fagano) before getting bogged down around Yendegaia.

The Chilean Marine Rgt is supported by the Cruiser O’Higgins and the scene is set for a clash near the Island of Nueva when the Chilean Airforce spots a battle group centered on the General Belgrano approaching the Beagle channel

I like the idea but, you have to get those Paras to the Falklands first for this all to work. IIRC in 1982 there was the idea of sending a company of Royal Marines ahead of the invasion yet they would have to go via Argentina first.
 
I like the idea but, you have to get those Paras to the Falklands first for this all to work. IIRC in 1982 there was the idea of sending a company of Royal Marines ahead of the invasion yet they would have to go via Argentina first.

One way trip.

Shorts Belfast with Max fuel (possibly with a 'Vulcenesque style refueling probe refitted') and a relatively light load can reach the Island from Ascension (Max range 8,528 km vs distance 6,300 kms) - it just cannot come back again ;) .

At least 5 were operating in 1982. Where there is a will.....(yep left that wide open)..there is a way

The Idea is that the Aircraft will arrive and block the runway for several weeks until fuel can be sent from Britain (or elsewhere) and Air refueling can be established at Ascension islands (ala Black Buck Raids)
 
One way trip.

Shorts Belfast with Max fuel (possibly with a 'Vulcenesque style refueling probe refitted') and a relatively light load can reach the Island from Ascension (Max range 8,528 km vs distance 6,300 kms) - it just cannot come back again ;) .

At least 5 were operating in 1982. Where there is a will.....(yep left that wide open)..there is a way

The Idea is that the Aircraft will arrive and block the runway for several weeks until fuel can be sent from Britain (or elsewhere) and Air refueling can be established at Ascension islands (ala Black Buck Raids)

It would make one hell of a movie!
(Starts humming Dambusters Marchx'D)
 
Back in the 1980s & early 90s we occasionally ran through assorted WWIII and post Cold War scenarios that had the Iowas & DesMoines cruisers beating up assorted surface combatants. In a Joint US/Japanese training exercise we had a notional Iowa trashing a Soviet Motor/Mech division with some well placed salvos of 16" ammo.
 

Nick P

Donor
Highly implausible but HMS Belfast versus the General Belgrano? Or even HMS Vanguard?

This of course requires either Belfast or Vanguard to be maintained in a state of readiness and have a good supply of ammo throughout the 1970s. And several hundred crew who understand how to fight the ship...

More likely to get both HMS Tiger and Blake back in service for a second round in the South Atlantic.
 
HMS Tiger and Blake were scheduled for the Falklands had Milk Snatcher gone for the summer campaign option instead of the OTL go as soon as possible one.
 
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