WI/AHC: New Netherland Survives to the Present Day

By survives, I mean survives as either an independent entity, or a part of the Dutch Empire, to somewhere near the present day, and maintains a population that is largely Dutch-speaking. How could that happen. And if that actually occurs, what's next? Does New Netherland become independent at some point? What of the patroons? Do they remain a powerful political force?
 
I mean, there were still Dutch Creole speakers in the New York-Niew Nederland area up until the 1900's. Maybe more settlement in Niew Nederland (have South Africa fail early?) so it ultimately isn't worth it to the British to take, then in an alt-American Revolution it gets swept up into an independent satellite state of an alt-USA.
 
Not necessarily, it could just involve the Dutch actually placing a garrison in New Amsterdam like some colonists asked them to, or the Dutch keeping New Netherland after seizing it for a bit in the 3rd Anglo-Dutch war. To be honest, losing New York, New Jersey, and parts of Pennsylvania and Delaware wouldn't have really hurt the English that much. The big difference IMO would be how the 7 Years War plays out in the colonies, since there is an entirely new player thrown in. Plus, the claims of New Netherland didn't have any sort of western boundary, similarly to the English colonies, so that might affect relations with the French.The colonialIn addition, the population of New Netherland had begun to rapidly increase by 1640. In 20 years, the population increased from 1,900 to 4,900.
 

Philip

Donor
How would this not hurt the British?

At the time, those colonies weren't worth much. The Dutch elected to keep Suriname instead.

As long as the Dutch are not invading New England or Virginia, the mid-Atlantic is not worth much to the English. Anything they can get from there can be found in the more established New England or Virginia.
 
At the time, those colonies weren't worth much. The Dutch elected to keep Suriname instead.

As long as the Dutch are not invading New England or Virginia, the mid-Atlantic is not worth much to the English. Anything they can get from there can be found in the more established New England or Virginia.

The issue of New Netherlands is exactly because it forces England to view Virginia and New England entirely separately: the Hudson acts as a giant wedge cleaving their North American possessions in twain and thus preventing them from mutually supporting one another either militarily or in terms of economic development.
 
No American revolution as we know it. If there will be indendence movements in English colonies, there will be several, like in latin America.
 
I would say that the key would be the Dutch keeping New Amsterdam/New Netherlands during the Second Anglo-Dutch war somehow. Since during the third Anglo-Dutch war, the Dutch were strong enough to even recapture New Amsterdam and not long after the glorious revolution happened and the Dutch and English were allies for a almost a century. Time enough to keep the Dutch identity of the region and significantly change North American history.

So if the key is the second Anglo-Dutch war, the Dutch must either be willing to trade Surinam back for the New Netherlands, which is hard, since Surinam is worth a lot more than New Netherlands , or the Dutch capture some British area that is worth less than Surinam, but would be a good trade for New Netherlands (maybe a southern North American British colony) or the could capture both Surinam and that colony or they could never lose the New Netherlands colony. I think the easiest way is letting the Dutch capture some colony instead of Surinam.

So my proposal would be that the Dutch lose the New Netherlands during the Second Anglo-Dutch war, but manage to capture Carolina (unless someone can think of a better colony?), instead of Surinam. After the war the New Netherlands is traded back for Carolina. Surinam remains English and the Dutch expand in Guyana (so we are switch the Dutch and English colonies here). To protect New Amsterdam better the area is fortified and the WIC (Dutch West Indies Company) loses control over the New Netherlands (New Amsterdam was already lost to them, the Dutch Estate General ruled it). The Dutch manage to defeat English attacks during the third Anglo-Dutch war and after the glorious revoltion the English and Dutch are more friendly. They help each other with the wars against France, although, because the Dutch actualy split the Neglish colonies, they aren't able to defeat the French.So the French manage to keep (some parts of) New France. The New Netherlands is unable to expand into the backlands, as the English colonies do, partly because it is smaller population wise than the English colonies, so it remains roughly the area of New York/New Jersey. In the 18th century it becomes effectively a Dutch Dominion. It has a lot of autonomy, like the Dutch provences, although no representationin the Estate General.Basicly it has the same situation as Drenthe had (not quite a provence, but better of than a generality land, certainly better of than a colony). Interestingly this leads to the Cape colony demanding the same rights as the New Netherlands has. Since they were ruled by the far more succesful VOC (Dutch East Indies Company), that is quite a bit harder, but when the VOC is in hard times, they get it too. In the 20th century, maybe even the 19th century the New Netherlands becomes effectively an independent nation.
 
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Philip

Donor
So my proposal would be that the Dutch lose the New Netherlands during the Second Anglo-Dutch war, but manage to capture Carolina (unless someone can think of a better colony?), instead of Surinam. After the war the New Netherlands is traded back for Carolina.

This is likely the best approach. Besides Carolina, there could be Nevis. A combined French and Dutch invasion was repelled, but it child easily heave gone the other way. I'm not sure of the relative values. It might not be enough by itself, but it is another bargaining chip. Maybe the Dutch keep the lesser of Nevis and Suriname along with New Amsterdam being returned.

Another option come right after the failed invasion. The French retreated to Martinique. The Dutch fleet headed north to raid Virginia. While they were gone, a new English fleet arrived and destroyed the French fleet. This forced the Dutch fleet to abandon its raids and return to the Caribbean. Had the Dutch remained in the Caribbean a bit longer, the combined Franco-Dutch fleet could have defeated the new English fleet. The joint fleet might then be able to take Charlestown in Carolina or maybe retake New Amsterdam. IIRC, this also leaves Suriname in Dutch hands at the end of the war.

One last option is Charles losing control back home. If Parliment can force Charles to leave the war immediately, the Dutch might be able to extract more favorable terms where they keep Suriname and New Amsterdam is returned.
 
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