WI/AHC : Lasting Empire of Cnut the Great

As title really, I'm curious as to whether the Empire of the North could have survived the death of Cnut the Great.

Part of me thinks that there is a possibility that if there was a Witenagemot of the Earls that Empire could have survived - essentially having Cnut reorganise his Empire so that the Earls would choose the Kings of their regions (King of Norway, England, etc) - but also a strong High King - typically from the previous High Kings family, else it is one of the Earls.

Assuming some sort of system is in place to ensure a succession, what do you think the long term impacts of a surviving Empire of the North are? Do they encompass the lands of the Baltic? Do they explore westward early?
 
Kill off Magnus of Norway before he can return to avenge his father, and Harthacnut/Cnut III might hold all three thrones (Wiki says the English rejected him because he fought Magnus in Norway too long). If he then secures the loyalty of his brothers, the monarchy might pass to some hypothetical son of Harthacnut, or to one of them.

As to where the Great Danish Empire goes, the Baltic is one possibility. Cnut already had family ties to the Piast dynasty in Poland, which entered a period of intense chaos at this time, between a pagan rebellion, and invasions from Bohemia. Conceivably, Harthacnut or his successor might choose to intervene in Poland on behalf of his cousins, marrying a daughter back into the house, perhaps leading to a union of Poland and the North Sea Empire down the line. The Polish-Danish connection is one of those odd hanging relationships in history that seems to be a sensible alliance-union, the two being close by and sharing enemies, that’s never been consummated.
 
A longer Cnutic Empire will be strongly English based on wealth and numbers.
I suspect subduing Scotland will be a goal since the Isles already owe Norway vassalship.
Sweden and the Baltic will be other options too.
 
Kill off Magnus of Norway before he can return to avenge his father, and Harthacnut/Cnut III might hold all three thrones (Wiki says the English rejected him because he fought Magnus in Norway too long). If he then secures the loyalty of his brothers, the monarchy might pass to some hypothetical son of Harthacnut, or to one of them.

As to where the Great Danish Empire goes, the Baltic is one possibility. Cnut already had family ties to the Piast dynasty in Poland, which entered a period of intense chaos at this time, between a pagan rebellion, and invasions from Bohemia. Conceivably, Harthacnut or his successor might choose to intervene in Poland on behalf of his cousins, marrying a daughter back into the house, perhaps leading to a union of Poland and the North Sea Empire down the line. The Polish-Danish connection is one of those odd hanging relationships in history that seems to be a sensible alliance-union, the two being close by and sharing enemies, that’s never been consummated.

I like it :D The key is how far inland they go. I can't see an Empire of the North, so reliant on naval power and mobility, willing to go too far inland. Perhaps they'd focus the Empire on the river territories, and have large vassal states further inland? I can see Danzig and Krakow being vital for that Kingdom. It'd be a costly enterprise. But the Baltic territories, those seem more easily held - once you take them.

A longer Cnutic Empire will be strongly English based on wealth and numbers.
I suspect subduing Scotland will be a goal since the Isles already owe Norway vassalship.
Sweden and the Baltic will be other options too.

What about Ireland? The idea of the English being the strongest cultural demographic in such an Empire is an interesting one. Much like in how India tends to dominate the idea of a British Empire.
 
It's hard to do over the very long period, though I assume it could continue for about a century or so. Eventually, the landed powers-that-be in Scandinavia will tire of being ruled from England by an Anglicized Danish dynasty
 
I doubt they can hold Norway, but If Edward The Confessor dies in exile, we might get Sweyn Estridsson as King, given that the next Saxon claimant was far away in Hungary. .
 
It's hard to do over the very long period, though I assume it could continue for about a century or so. Eventually, the landed powers-that-be in Scandinavia will tire of being ruled from England by an Anglicized Danish dynasty

Possibly. Although I think it depends on just how strong rule from London ends up being. If the King in London is content with a very loose rule over Denmark, then I could see the nobles coming to see keeping the Empire going. After all, while the King is focused on the West, the nobles could pretty much do whatever they want.
 
This uber Denmark would, over time, turn the Baltic into a Danish lake, and the British isles and Northern Europe into thier playground
 
It's hard to do over the very long period, though I assume it could continue for about a century or so. Eventually, the landed powers-that-be in Scandinavia will tire of being ruled from England by an Anglicized Danish dynasty

You don't think there are any institutional changes that could be adopted to mitigate this?

I doubt they can hold Norway, but If Edward The Confessor dies in exile, we might get Sweyn Estridsson as King, given that the next Saxon claimant was far away in Hungary. .

I'm confused why the son of a sister would take the throne.

Possibly. Although I think it depends on just how strong rule from London ends up being. If the King in London is content with a very loose rule over Denmark, then I could see the nobles coming to see keeping the Empire going. After all, while the King is focused on the West, the nobles could pretty much do whatever they want.

This is why I think an Empire-wide Witenagemot might work - locally elected regents may make the rest of it bearable. There may need to be some limitations on WHO they can choose, but I think it would at the very least make the most absentee Kings tolerable. Throw in some 'lavish' building projects and it could be pretty smooth. Ignoring the vast money to be made via trade.

This uber Denmark would, over time, turn the Baltic into a Danish lake, and the British isles and Northern Europe into thier playground

+1

So what about beyond then? This is a cultural continuity from the Viking Sagas, and Saxons - could we see a 're-exploration' of the west, and a conquest of Iceland? I do like the idea of the Empire of the North having the headstart on the rest of Europe in the New World. If only so the King can use it to reward loyal men with more land. There isn't really much to expand into in Europe for a Thalassocracy, besides well placed islands.

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Sidenote : Distant they may be, but Scandinavia and the Romans had an interesting relationship - with the height of a Greater Scandinavian Empire, and potentially maintained, what sort of relationship could these two powers have? Would the Empire of the North lead to changes in how the Normans enter Sicily?
 
It's worth noting again that Cnut's rule in England was dependent on English nobles. This wasn't a Danish dominance but merely a King who happened to be Danish and ruled across the North Sea. Think James Stuart lite.
 
I'm confused why the son of a sister would take the throne.

Because Cnut had no surviving brother.

After all, Sweyn took the Danish throne. And EtC succeeded Harthacnut despite being related to him only through their mother.

Another thought on this. WI Sweyn Godwinsson had met with an accident before having a chance to murder his foster-brother Bjorn.

Bjorn was another nephew of Cnut, and had a big Earldom in the East Midlands. If still alive in 1066, he, rather than Harold, might have been the Godwinssons' candidate for the throne. If a bit luckier than Harold, he might have survived 1066 and founded a Danish dynasty which might have claimed the throne of Denmark a generation or three down the line.
 
This uber Denmark would, over time, turn the Baltic into a Danish lake, and the British isles and Northern Europe into thier playground

I’m not sure - any Canutid dynasty in my mind would inevitably become anglicized. The great man himself decided to rule from England and devote most of his attention there, after all
 
I’m not sure - any Canutid dynasty in my mind would inevitably become anglicized. The great man himself decided to rule from England and devote most of his attention there, after all

Great swaths of Britian already spoke various Norse dialects - he may rule from England, but ot will be an England where York is still Jorvik, and where Danish and Norse have influenced English to the degree French and Norman did in OTL.
 
Great swaths of Britian already spoke various Norse dialects - he may rule from England, but ot will be an England where York is still Jorvik, and where Danish and Norse have influenced English to the degree French and Norman did in OTL.

The Danelaw by this time was already in the throes of integration, and Cnut didn’t rule from the Danelaw
 
The Danelaw by this time was already in the throes of integration, and Cnut didn’t rule from the Danelaw

OTOH, if the survival of Knut's empire means no Norman Conquest, hence no Harrying of the North, then the Danelaw will be a lot richer and more populous in the Middle Ages, so presumably have more political weight.
 
OTOH, if the survival of Knut's empire means no Norman Conquest, hence no Harrying of the North, then the Danelaw will be a lot richer and more populous in the Middle Ages, so presumably have more political weight.
Considering modern English is mostly descended from the midland dialects that could be interesting.
Especially as the Danelaw had already set in motion a simplification of Old English that was accelerated by the Norman Conquest.
 
I’m not sure - any Canutid dynasty in my mind would inevitably become anglicized. The great man himself decided to rule from England and devote most of his attention there, after all

Wasn’t there already a Denmark-influenced “Danelaw” region in England? The Danelaw as a cultural region can only increase with Cnut’s continued empire.
 
Wasn’t there already a Denmark-influenced “Danelaw” region in England? The Danelaw as a cultural region can only increase with Cnut’s continued empire.

Canute ruled from Wessex (as opposed to Denmark) and though his initial administrative reforms were headed by imported Danes to run local divisions, they were soon replaced by Anglo-Saxons and his wife was from the House of Wessex - a shrewd political move, by the way. The laws of King Edgar, from the House of Wessex (ca. late 10th century) were used. By the end of his life, his entire inner circle was comprised of Anglos. He basically ruled as an England-based English King with English advisers using English law. Most of the complaining about him being foreign (in this case I mean proximity rather than culture) was done in Denmark, not England.
 
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