WI/AHC Imperial Shogunate

So I recently read that the last six Shoguns of the Kamakura Shogunate were members of the Imperial family and that during the Tokugawa Shogunate Daimyo Sakai Tadakiyo attempted to have Tokugawa Ietsuna succeeded by an Imperial Prince. So what if an Imperial Shogunate had been established? By that I mean a hereditary Shogunate led by members of the Imperial House. How could this come about and what would it look like?
 
So I recently read that the last six Shoguns of the Kamakura Shogunate were members of the Imperial family and that during the Tokugawa Shogunate Daimyo Sakai Tadakiyo attempted to have Tokugawa Ietsuna succeeded by an Imperial Prince. So what if an Imperial Shogunate had been established? By that I mean a hereditary Shogunate led by members of the Imperial House. How could this come about and what would it look like?
Strictly speaking, the founder of the Kamakura Shogunate, Minamoto no Yoritomo, was the great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandson of a Japanese Emperor in the patriline. So I think that's an issue if you were thinking about something post-Heian: many people claim imperial descent or Fujiwara descent. But that's not the major issue. The issue is if you're thinking of a hereditary shogunate. If you had a situation where a member of the imperial house founded a shogunate, the shogunate would eventually be just as distant from the imperial house as the Minamoto. And at that point you must ask whether it's an imperial shogunate.

The situation is different if you're talking about a Tokugawa-era situation or a Kamakura-era situation. I don't know enough about the latter, but if you're talking about the former, the Hojo would never let go of power. In that situation, it would be more convenient to go the historical route with something like the Kemmu Restoration.
 
Strictly speaking, the founder of the Kamakura Shogunate, Minamoto no Yoritomo, was the great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandson of a Japanese Emperor in the patriline. So I think that's an issue if you were thinking about something post-Heian: many people claim imperial descent or Fujiwara descent. But that's not the major issue. The issue is if you're thinking of a hereditary shogunate. If you had a situation where a member of the imperial house founded a shogunate, the shogunate would eventually be just as distant from the imperial house as the Minamoto. And at that point you must ask whether it's an imperial shogunate.

The situation is different if you're talking about a Tokugawa-era situation or a Kamakura-era situation. I don't know enough about the latter, but if you're talking about the former, the Hojo would never let go of power. In that situation, it would be more convenient to go the historical route with something like the Kemmu Restoration.

I was mainly thinking of a member of the Imperial House founding a Shogunate, like the Minamoto. Or maybe some sort of alternating system, with the Shogun's son becoming Emperor and the Emperor's son becoming Shogun. Like how the Northern and Southern Courts were supposed to alternate on the throne.

I also like the idea of a switch-up in the Tokugawa Shogunate, with the new Shogun being an Imperial Prince. What would the consequences be? Would the Shogun become a puppet ruler like the Kamakura Shoguns or would we see a member of the Imperial House wield actual political power? And if the later, would the Shogun try to claim the Imperial throne as well, creating a much difference and earlier Imperial Restoration? Or would any Princely Shogun have to renounce the Imperial Throne first?
 
I was mainly thinking of a member of the Imperial House founding a Shogunate, like the Minamoto. Or maybe some sort of alternating system, with the Shogun's son becoming Emperor and the Emperor's son becoming Shogun. Like how the Northern and Southern Courts were supposed to alternate on the throne.

I also like the idea of a switch-up in the Tokugawa Shogunate, with the new Shogun being an Imperial Prince. What would the consequences be? Would the Shogun become a puppet ruler like the Kamakura Shoguns or would we see a member of the Imperial House wield actual political power? And if the later, would the Shogun try to claim the Imperial throne as well, creating a much difference and earlier Imperial Restoration? Or would any Princely Shogun have to renounce the Imperial Throne first?
Neither of your ideas are likely. Remember that the Tokugawa family was not extinct after Ietsuna's death, which is why his brother and heir Tsunayoshi was picked. Contrast this with the Minamoto of Yoritomo's line, which died out in the first or second generation after him, which gave the Hojo a reason to pick another family. Picking anybody else besides a Tokugawa would basically be against that family's law. Deviation from principle would be quashed by the many wealthy and powerful Tokugawa lords, including Tsunayoshi, who is a powerful lord in his own right. For example, he has a han with an income of 250,000 koku of rice, which is something like twice the income of the entire imperial court itself.

As for the princes who were Kamakura shoguns, they are all basically irrelevant while the Hojo are in power. Now, there was a restoration of imperial power under Emperor Go-Daigo, whose son was Shogun, but this was only when Go-Daigo was allied with several military lords. This alliance can only be sustained in opposition to the Hojo. Once this breaks down, I predict that one of the lords would try to become Shogun, as happened historically with the Ashikaga. The other alternative is for the Nitta to become Shoguns instead. Both of these families trace their descent to an emperor as well. Now, during the end of the Kamakura era, the power of eastern military lords is at its peak and the powers at the center, whether in Kamakura or Kyoto, are at their nadir. So it is unlikely that an imperial shogunate could form, when the capitals are dependent on provincial lords who have all of the money and the men. The interests of these lords were opposed to the centralizing tendency of Go-Daigo.

There might be a situation somewhere in the middle. Let's say the Hojo retain Kamakura and the east. Given how the Ashikata and Nitta have domains there, they'll remain in opposition to the Hojo whom they hate. And to balance out these two, maybe an imperial prince could be shogun to placate both sides. But once there's unification, military men will rise to the ascendancy. This is an overall trend that a few decades or years of imperial control will not break.
 
Sorry to bump this but I think its alright if your the OP. Anyway I was doing some research on a vague idea I had for a Japan TL when I came across this guy, Prince Moriyoshi. He was the son of Emperor Go-Diago, who famously attempted to restore Imperial power in the failed Kenmu Restoration. Now this Prince was appointed Shogun and seemed to have military experience (he and Kusunoki Masashige successfully rallied many warriors to the Imperial banner) but he was executed by Ashikaga Takauji. So if the Restoration had succeeded (a big if I know) would Prince Moriyoshi found a new Shogunal line, or would the title become more honorary?
 
Sorry to bump this but I think its alright if your the OP. Anyway I was doing some research on a vague idea I had for a Japan TL when I came across this guy, Prince Moriyoshi. He was the son of Emperor Go-Diago, who famously attempted to restore Imperial power in the failed Kenmu Restoration. Now this Prince was appointed Shogun and seemed to have military experience (he and Kusunoki Masashige successfully rallied many warriors to the Imperial banner) but he was executed by Ashikaga Takauji. So if the Restoration had succeeded (a big if I know) would Prince Moriyoshi found a new Shogunal line, or would the title become more honorary?
Essentially no, and no in the short run.

The whole point of Go-Daigo's restoration was the genuine restoration of imperial authority in the person of the Emperor, and creating dual lineages with authority goes against that. If he succeeds (and there's no decent chance that he would), I don't think he'd divide the military authority of the empire from the political center of the court.

Also, the title of Shogun was very prestigious for quite some time, so I don't think it would ever be honorary. I think that at most, it returns to its pre-Minamoto position where it denotes the highest-level general (the characters for Shogun just mean general) in service to the court.
 
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