WI/AHC: House of Koxinga takes over China? Zheng Dynasty

[GameBawesome]

The Zheng Family, also known as the House of Koxinga was founded by Zheng Chenggong, or also known as Koxinga. He was a Ming Loyalist that fought against the Manchu Qing Conquests, and nearly took Nanjing, which had he did, it would've interrupted the supply route of the Grand Canal leading to possible starvation in Beijing caused such fear that the Manchus considered returning to Manchuria and abandoning China according to a 1671 by one account. However, Koxinga's forces were unable to maintain a complete encirclement, which enabled the city to obtain supplies and even reinforcements, and Koxinga was defeated.

Koxinga would turn to the island of Formosa (Now Taiwan) and fought the Dutch and established a stronghold of Ming Loyalists that would become the Kingdom of Tungning. It became the last bastion of Ming Loyalists and ethnic-Han Chinese culture after the Manchu Qing Conquests. At their height, they had a vast trade network in East Asia, and controlled some ports on the mainland. They had great ambitions, and during the Three Feudatories revolt, tried to make a go at retaking coastal cities on China, but failed. Eventually, the Qing conquered the Kingdom of Tungning in 1683.

So, what if Koxinga was able to take Nanjing, forcing the Qing back into Manchuria, and reclaiming China for the Ming Dynasty? However, later down the line (Probably not in Koxinga's lifetime), the Ming Emperors did something that loses them legitimacy (Throwing it out there, but maybe converting to Catholicism that anger traditionalists; Some of members of the Ming Dynasty did become converts near the end), and the Ming Dynasty is overthrown...

Enter the Zheng Family, who were the descendants of the heroes that saved China from the Manchus. What if the House of Koxinga takes over China by the end of the 17th Century, establishing a new Zheng Dynasty of China?

 

[Onedotman]

Chinese history has no shortage of underlooked PODs, and this is truly one of them. IOTL, the Qing general Guan Xiaozhong offered to surrender Nanjing to Zheng Chenggong in 30 days before launching a surprise attack that defeated Zheng's army. Let's say that his troops were less negligent and succeeded in repelling Guan.

Driving out the Manchus is no easy task though, sinceby 1659 (the time of Zheng's expedition to Nanjing), the Qing has firmly established its hegemony over northern China. In the best-case scenario, the Ming would have held control over southern China (perhaps for longer than OTL) while the north is under Qing rule, resulting in another northern-southern dynasty situation.

 

[GameBawesome]

So, had the Zheng family or Koxinga Dynasty taken over China from the Ming Dynasty in the late 17th Century, how do you think they'll rule? What if there was a larger naval focus then before?

 

[Remitonov]

So, had the Zheng family or Koxinga Dynasty taken over China from the Ming Dynasty in the late 17th Century, how do you think they'll rule? What if there was a larger naval focus then before?

Most probably a lot like the Song, with a focus on mercantile activity, adminsitration and scientific progress, although I don't think the Southern Ming would be as hopelessly inept at warfare as the Song was.

 

[GameBawesome]

So, another question, what would be the name of this new Zheng dominated China? I thought it would be "Zheng Dynasty", but that was the family name, and the Chinese Dynastic Naming convention is a bit different (Either, after the noble title held by the dynastic founder prior to the founding of the dynasty, the name of a historical state that occupied the same geographical location, the name of a previous dynasty from which the new dynasty claimed descent or succession from, or A term with auspicious or other significant connotations) So, could it just be called the "Koxinga Dynasty" or "Yanping Dynasty"?

 

[Monter]

So, another question, what would be the name of this new Zheng dominated China? I thought it would be "Zheng Dynasty", but that was the family name, and the Chinese Dynastic Naming convention is a bit different (Either, after the noble title held by the dynastic founder prior to the founding of the dynasty, the name of a historical state that occupied the same geographical location, the name of a previous dynasty from which the new dynasty claimed descent or succession from, or A term with auspicious or other significant connotations) So, could it just be called the "Koxinga Dynasty" or "Yanping Dynasty"?

Well there is always Ning (from Tongning, "Pacified East") which can be some sort of evolution, Yue is also a possibility, since Yanping was a county based on the ancient Yue state, or he can make one on the spot like the Yuan, Ming and Qing.

 

[Aluma]

Well there is always Ning (from Tongning, "Pacified East") which can be some sort of evolution,

Ning sounds fitting considering the formula followed by the last chinese dynasties(Jin, Ming, Qing)

 

[Iron_Lord]

So, had the Zheng family or Koxinga Dynasty taken over China from the Ming Dynasty in the late 17th Century, how do you think they'll rule? What if there was a larger naval focus then before?

They certainly wouldn‘t stand around while the Europeans gain maritime dominance in the South China Sea!

 

[Avrorrange]

So, another question, what would be the name of this new Zheng dominated China? I thought it would be "Zheng Dynasty", but that was the family name, and the Chinese Dynastic Naming convention is a bit different (Either, after the noble title held by the dynastic founder prior to the founding of the dynasty, the name of a historical state that occupied the same geographical location, the name of a previous dynasty from which the new dynasty claimed descent or succession from, or A term with auspicious or other significant connotations) So, could it just be called the "Koxinga Dynasty" or "Yanping Dynasty"?

Min/閩 is a possibility,but I would say Yue(越) or Wu(吳) is far more likely given the latter two were prestigious Spring and Autumn period states. None of them were exactly ideal however given all of them were considered barbaric states. Alternative would be one of a title the emperor confers, Zheng Chenggong turned down the offer to upgrade his title from King of Yanping to King of Min(閩) iotl, so he could be angling for a better title like Qi(齊 ).Dropping 平(ping) from 廷平(Yanping) is also a possibility like Liu Bang dropping 中(zhong) from 漢中(Hanzhong).The term 廷 by itself meant extended, so it’s also a good name.

Zheng Chenggong winning is definitely a criminally underused POD. Not even the Chinese authors themselves write it because as per a popular Chinese webnovel writer, ‘Zheng Chenggong represented the capitalists and thus the CCP doesn’t want people to write about them winning’.

 

[galik]

For what I've read, I wrongfully (just by the comments) thought that the Koxinga conquests were bases for piracy rather than bases for offensive operations. Even with the objective to bring the Ming back, I saw it has an impossible task. What PODs could bring the Ming back? Why would Koxinga be Emperor?

 

[Avrorrange]

For what I've read, I wrongfully (just by the comments) thought that the Koxinga conquests were bases for piracy rather than bases for offensive operations. Even with the objective to bring the Ming back, I saw it has an impossible task. What PODs could bring the Ming back? Why would Koxinga be Emperor?

Zheng Chenggong was literally just outside Nanjing and thought he obtained the surrender of the city. Taking Nanjing was hardly getting bases for piracy. His father was a pirate, but he was not. Obviously, if the movement took over significant parts of China, Zhen Chenggong himself would be emperor or at least the shadow emperor like Cao Cao. The last reliable ship for the survival of the Ming Dynasty has sailed since 1645 at the latest.

 

[galik]

Zheng Chenggong was literally just outside Nanjing and thought he obtained the surrender of the city. Taking Nanjing was hardly getting bases for piracy. His father was a pirate, but he was not. Obviously, if the movement took over significant parts of China, Zhen Chenggong himself would be emperor or at least the shadow emperor like Cao Cao. The last reliable ship for the survival of the Ming Dynasty has sailed since 1645 at the latest.

For my timeline this is an interesting turn of events. If a naval European Power seeks to help Koxinga in his project in early 1660s is still a possibility for him to take power? Another thing I'm not acquainted is how the imperial legitimacy works in China, by conquest and hereditary are the only ways?

 

[Avrorrange]

For my timeline this is an interesting turn of events. If a naval European Power seeks to help Koxinga in his project in early 1660s is still a possibility for him to take power? Another thing I'm not acquainted is how the imperial legitimacy works in China, by conquest and hereditary are the only ways?

Which one? Certainly not the Dutch.

In general, there are several methods to becoming emperor. You either inherit it paternally(basically salic law), usurp it with absolutely no claim , or through conquest(generally in periods of disorder where the central government has completely collapsed). To usurp the throne, you basically force have the emperor of the old dynasty ‘voluntarily’ go through a religious ceremony ((based on the Period of the Three Sovereigns and Five Emperors where Yao reportedly yielded the throne to Shun based on merit, someone who was completely unrelated to Yao) where he hands the mandate to you because you are meritorious.

 

[galik]

Which one? Certainly not the Dutch.

In general, there are several methods to becoming emperor. You either inherit it paternally(basically salic law), usurp it with absolutely no claim , or through conquest(generally in periods of disorder where the central government has completely collapsed). To usurp the throne, you basically force have the emperor of the old dynasty ‘voluntarily’ go through a religious ceremony ((based on the Period of the Three Sovereigns and Five Emperors where Yao reportedly yielded the throne to Shun based on merit, someone who was completely unrelated to Yao) where he hands the mandate to you because you are meritorious.

Portugal. According to my TL, Japan has opened trade with Portugal, and from Macao naval support could be given to help Koxinga (for obvious reasons). So, for my TL, Koxinga could have help from Portugal in war material, maybe mercenaries and use Macanese ports to supply fleets or even acquire Portuguese vessels.
But thanks for the info regarding the Chinese, I'll further investigate the dynastic dynamics if I go through this path.

 

[GameBawesome]

So how would the Zheng -ruled China deal with Europeans? Will there be a return to the Haijin due to large Confucian pressure, or will the China be more open?

 

[Avrorrange]

So how would the Zheng -ruled China deal with Europeans? Will there be a return to the Haijin due to large Confucian pressure, or will the China be more open?

Probably more open. The Zhengs were an extremely cosmopolitan lot. One of their elite units was made up entirely of African musketeers.

 

[Remitonov]

So how would the Zheng -ruled China deal with Europeans? Will there be a return to the Haijin due to large Confucian pressure, or will the China be more open?

Well, the Dutch are a no-go, given it was their colony that was conquered from them. Expect them to give the Qing the necessary help in conquering Taiwan as per OTL. Someone earlier did mention the Portuguese, which is a good bet. Whether the Zhengs are willing to accept Catholic missionaries is another story, but it's a bit harder to say no in exchange for more pew pew things.

 

[GameBawesome]

Expect them to give the Qing the necessary help in conquering Taiwan as per OTL.

Sorry, I should clarify with all due respect, I hope I’m not sounding rude.

This is a timeline where Koxinga and the Southern Ming loyalists managed to retake Nanjing and drive the Qing back into Manchuria, with the Ming reestablishing itself. However, the House of Zhu managed to lose legitimacy (Putting it out there, converting to Catholicism; Some members did do that) and this makes the Confucian bureaucrats angry enough to coup them and replace them with the House of Zheng.

On the contrary, Taiwan may remain Dutch, if the Zheng-ruled China doesn’t suddenly decides to reconquer it

 

[Remitonov]

Sorry, I should clarify with all due respect, I hope I’m not sounding rude.

This is a timeline where Koxinga and the Southern Ming loyalists managed to retake Nanjing and drive the Qing back into Manchuria, with the Ming reestablishing itself. However, the House of Zhu managed to lose legitimacy (Putting it out there, converting to Catholicism; Some members did do that) and this makes the Confucian bureaucrats angry enough to coup them and replace them with the House of Zheng.

On the contrary, Taiwan may remain Dutch, if the Zheng-ruled China doesn’t suddenly decides to reconquer it

I mean, if the House of Zhu is replaced, it won't be called the Ming anymore. I feel. The new dynasts would be incentivized to use a different name.

 

[GameBawesome]

I mean, if the House of Zhu is replaced, it won't be called the Ming anymore. I feel. The new dynasts would be incentivized to use a different name.

Again, I hope I'm not being disrespectful, but we also had a discussion about a House of Koxinga/Zheng Dynasty name of China:

Ning sounds fitting considering the formula followed by the last chinese dynasties(Jin, Ming, Qing)

Min/閩 is a possibility,but I would say Yue(越) or Wu(吳) is far more likely given the latter two were prestigious Spring and Autumn period states. None of them were exactly ideal however given all of them were considered barbaric states. Alternative would be one of a title the emperor confers, Zheng Chenggong turned down the offer to upgrade his title from King of Yanping to King of Min(閩) iotl, so he could be angling for a better title like Qi(齊 ).Dropping 平(ping) from 廷平(Yanping) is also a possibility like Liu Bang dropping 中(zhong) from 漢中(Hanzhong).The term 廷 by itself meant extended, so it’s also a good name.

But whatever the case of the new Dynasty's name, I wonder what this new China would be like under the House of Koxinga. Would it be more open to Europeans and foreign trade? Or would it become more the Ming later on?