WI/AHC: Germans stay in the Sudetenland

Germans are allowed to stay in Sudetenland after WW2. Can this happen? How will Czechoslovakia develop in this timeline? Will there be ethnic tensions? Separatist movement? What will relationship between Czechs, Germans and Slovaks be?
 
No. There is no conceivable reason why the Allies would allow Germany to keep any of the territory gained under Hitler.
 
IMO the only hope for avoiding the expulsions would be if there had been a significant anti-Nazi Sudeten German resistance movement. But this was never likely--at least not until the defeat of Germany was in sight. And by then it would have been too late--indeed the British did not even *want* it:

"Recognizing this, [that there had been no Sudeten German resistance to the Nazis] at the beginning of 1945 Jaksch [exiled leader of the Sudeten German Social Democrats] approached one of his contacts at the Foreign Office, Frank Roberts, for permission to broadcast to his homeland on the BBC one last time. Though there was not more than a 'tiny chance,' he acknowledged, that his attempt to warn the people of the Sudetenland of the fate that awaited them would succeed, it might still be possible to prevent the worst after the war 'if the anti-Nazi element in the Sudeten districts. . . could, in a decisive hour, act simultaneously with the masses in the Czech interior.' In August 1944, after all, Slovak insurgents had rebelled against the Nazis, following five years of enthusiastic collaboration with Berlin in the course of which Slovak forces had participated in the invasions of both Poland and the USSR, to say nothing of assisting in the deportation of most of the country's Jewish population to Hitler's extermination camps. Though the rising had been a failure, it was sufficient to insulate Slovakia against the threat of a systematic campaign of postwar retribution. By early 1945, the only faint hope for the Sudetendeutsche seemed to be a similar demonstration, however belated, of their willingness to identify themselves with the Allied cause...The Foreign Office's fear about such a broadcast was the opposite to Jaksch's: not that his appeal might fail, but that it might succeed. The Czechoslovak government in exile's settled policy, a British official reminded his colleagues, was to eject most of the Sudetendeutsche from the country. If in response to exhortations from Britain they were to rise against the Nazis, London would thereby be accepting 'responsibilities for these Sudetens who responded to this appeal. This responsibility we should not be able to accept.' Jaksch's request for broadcast facilities was consequently denied. By the time the war ended, he was unable to point to a single concrete example of Sudeten German assistance--or even attempted assistance--to the Allied campaign." R.M. Douglas, *Orderly and Humane: The Expulsion of the Germans after the Second World War* https://books.google.com/books?id=DeOzUL-HXb0C&pg=PT10

(The title of Douglas's book, derived from the Potsdam Agreement, is--needless to say--ironic...)
 
Last edited:
The Czechs were really in a unique position--almost surrounded by Germans on three sides. (And to the east were the Slovaks, whose loyalty the Czechs worried they could not totally count on.) To a greater extent than other countries in central Europe, there was a fear of being totally Germanized. For this reason, it was almost inevitable that Czech nationalism would assume an anti-German form, especially after the experience of 1938-45. This makes the expulsions, if not inevitable, at least very likely unless the Allies firmly rejected the idea--which they were not in the mood to do, having their own resentments about Germany...
 

Towelie

Banned
I think if there is sufficient anti-Communism present in the Czech population and the Sudeten Germans are willing to collaborate, they could avoid the expulsions. The Soviets were looking for friends in Eastern Europe. They had enough enemies as it was.
 
I think if there is sufficient anti-Communism present in the Czech population and the Sudeten Germans are willing to collaborate, they could avoid the expulsions. The Soviets were looking for friends in Eastern Europe. They had enough enemies as it was.

That's not very likely. First of all, Czech public opinion was quite pro-Soviet in 1945--even among non-Communists. It was widely believed that the West had betrayed Czechoslovakia at Munich. Second, the expulsions--while not originally the idea of the Communists--helped them electorally because a Communist Minister was in charge of distributing the expelled Germans' property to Czech farmers, which helped win the Communists support from pre-war Agrarians (the Agrarian Party was banned after the war for alleged collaboration with the German occupation). So the Communists really had no incentive not to go along with Benes' proposed expulsion program. If they refused to do so, it would lose them support among the Czechs far more than they could hope to gain among the Germans.
 
IMO the only hope for avoiding the expulsions would be if there had been a significant anti-Nazi Sudeten German resistance movement. But this was never likely--at least not until the defeat of Germany was in sight. And by then it would have been too late--indeed the British did not even *want* it:

"Recognizing this, [that there had been no Sudeten German resistance to the Nazis] at the beginning of 1945 Jaksch [exiled leader of the Sudeten German Social Democrats] approached one of his contacts at the Foreign Office, Frank Roberts, for permission to broadcast to his homeland on the BBC one last time. Though there was not more than a 'tiny chance,' he acknowledged, that his attempt to warn the people of the Sudetenland of the fate that awaited them would succeed, it might still be possible to prevent the worst after the war 'if the anti-Nazi element in the Sudeten districts. . . could, in a decisive hour, act simultaneously with the masses in the Czech interior.' In August 1944, after all, Slovak insurgents had rebelled against the Nazis, following five years of enthusiastic collaboration with Berlin in the course of which Slovak forces had participated in the invasions of both Poland and the USSR, to say nothing of assisting in the deportation of most of the country's Jewish population to Hitler's extermination camps. Though the rising had been a failure, it was sufficient to insulate Slovakia against the threat of a systematic campaign of postwar retribution. By early 1945, the only faint hope for the Sudetendeutsche seemed to be a similar demonstration, however belated, of their willingness to identify themselves with the Allied cause...The Foreign Office's fear about such a broadcast was the opposite to Jaksch's: not that his appeal might fail, but that it might succeed. The Czechoslovak government in exile's settled policy, a British official reminded his colleagues, was to eject most of the Sudetendeutsche from the country. If in response to exhortations from Britain they were to rise against the Nazis, London would thereby be accepting 'responsibilities for these Sudetens who responded to this appeal. This responsibility we should not be able to accept.' Jaksch's request for broadcast facilities was consequently denied. By the time the war ended, he was unable to point to a single concrete example of Sudeten German assistance--or even attempted assistance--to the Allied campaign." R.M. Douglas, *Orderly and Humane: The Expulsion of the Germans after the Second World War* https://books.google.com/books?id=DeOzUL-HXb0C&pg=PT10

(The title of Douglas's book, derived from the Potsdam Agreement, is--needless to say--ironic...)
Interesting view of author who... in my opinion don't know much about Slovak topic but is just commenting from outside without much studding it.
Firstly since 1918 there was push for Slovak autonomy (or federation). After all it was promised to Slovaks in Pittsburgh agreement. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsburgh_Agreement
Don't take me wrong. Czechoslovakia itself was huge plus for Slovak. Helped to develop Slovak culture and schools which were under Hungarians well barely keeping itself up.

Saying Slovakia invasion of Poland and Soviet Union was enthusiastic? hardly. Invasion of Poland itself needed huge propaganda of Slovak government. Prague handing away Slovak villages to Poland in 20-ties (as kind of compensation for Tesin areas as well as Polish acquisition of clearly Slovak territories in 1938 helped to sell this war as 'liberation war'. But barely. Expulsion of Slovaks from Polish territory in 1945 in my opinion again are kind of confirmation that Slovakia in 1939 kind of went with what was established by western powers in 1938 Munich and Vienna as just.

Now to Soviet Union, this was never seen by Slovak population as just war as Slovakia and Soviet Union didn't even share the border and didn't have territorial issues. After all number of Slovak troops was decreasing since 1941 to 1943 significantly.
According to German commanders (I believe von Rundstedt said it) Slovaks were first rate and fought well. However by 1942 Slovak army equipment in Soviet union was not updated and regular Slovak soldiers were not satisfied with German treatment with Soviet citizens. Often fraternization was big issue. Slovak soldiers saw communist regime as evil but what Germans were doing there was not better in their opinion. Desertions started to become issue in late 1942.

Now to position of Slovaks towards Czechoslovakia. It was Slovak who was ambassador of Czechoslovakia in Paris and put in motion Free Czechoslovak government as well as help with building of Free Czechoslovak Division in France in 1939/40.
Now to numbers of Slovaks in Czechoslovak armed forces abroad during WWII
France 44.5 %
England 14%
Middle East 16%
Soviet union from 1943-1944 10-19.8 %
Czechoslovak army corps 74%!

And of course Slovak National Uprising when Slovak Army in late August 1944 raised against its government and Germans and held significant territory for two months. One of biggest Uprisings against Nazis and their collaborators in Europe. Possible on par with Warsaw Uprising!

If we take into consideration that in Czechoslovakia there was only 1 Slovak general out of 139, nos single Colonel, 3 Slovak Lt. Colonels out of 1041, 11 Slovak Majors out of 1429, 107 Captains out of 4164, 57 1st lt out of 1517 and 256 2nd Lt out of 4066 in regular Czechoslovak army. There was more German nationality officers in Czechoslovak army then Slovaks! Interestingly despite this Slovaks during mobilization in September 1938 mobilized without issues under Czechoslovak flag!

And if we take into consideration that by % Slovaks were some 15.6 % of Czechoslovak population after 1918, Slovaks had during WWII most of the time more then their share in Czechoslovak armed forces abroad fighting Nazis. Especially in France and in 1944 when Czechoslovak corps in USSR was created.

However it is true creation of independent Slovak republic was met with enthusiasm among general population. After all in time of nation states what is the biggest dream of nation who don't have it's own state?

To Jewish question. Indeed, Slovak population was often antisemitic. Mostly because Jews were before 1918 seen as Hungarians (working with Hungarian ruling nation). Deportation of Jews is very dark spot on Slovak history. Before deportation of Slovak Jews only Hungarians (some 20000) and Bulgarians (not sure of number but from territories gained from Greece) deported Jews to German held territories. Both of them Jews without Bulgarian or Hungarian citizenship. Slovakia even paid Germans for taking Slovak Jews! But it seems Slovak government was kind of cheated. They were not paying Germans for killing deported but Germans were charging them for creating livable environment for deported. interestingly when it was made clear what is going on Slovak government stopped deportation which started again only when Germans basically took over Slovakia after Uprising 1944. Again it does not make it much better but still there is something to think about. And also interestingly Slovaks have really high number of people among Righteous among nations - 558 against 115 in Czech republic (to be fair to Czechs before Uprising Slovaks were not punished by death penalty for political crimes by Slovak fascist government - even deserters were sentenced only to jail time - in war time).

That just to explain how much worst position Sudetenland Germans had against Slovaks (and how you can't compare their position in after war Czechoslovakia) to somehow influence either British, Americans or directly Czechoslovak government against deportations. And in my opinion how much author you quoted failed to understand Czech - Slovak relations. Before, during and after war.
I believe there were few Sudetenland Germans serving in Czechoslovak army in exile. But really few. Not enough to influence some opinions.
I have seen few articles dealing with Sudetenland German anti Nazi emigration and even their relations with Czechoslovak Government in exile. However I don't recall much. So can't really comment.

If Germans got chance to stay it had to be enforced (or their expulsion opposed by one of Powers - as happened with Hungarians in Slovakia).

Now if they stayed - expelled are only most prominent Nazi collaborators. What position would they be in? Similar to Hungarians in Slovakia, who after few years after war got back their own schools, theaters and were basically able to keep Hungarian language in everyday use in areas where they were majority or they would be more oppressed? Or would Prague try to de Germanize Sudetenland by migration, forced bohemization etc?
If first would be true there is possibility Germans in Sudetenland could be after 1989 in similar positions as Hungarians in Slovakia. There was some hostility from time to time but never got to extreme and eventually Slovak Hungarians started to play important role on Slovak political scene. Of course with Germans it could be harder especially if they got a lot of support from Germany which could be due to their numbers end economical strength of Germany viewed as bigger danger to Czechs.

If on other side Germans were more oppressed during communist era how would they react after 1989? Especially after Slovaks decided to separated? Would they try to go similar way which could end up in Kosovo style situation? Especially as Czechs would not have ally in region (maybe some understanding from Poles and Slovaks) or would Sudetenland Germans play similar role Hungarians in Romania are playing now - I believe their position was worst against position of Hungarians in Slovakia during communist era. But not sure - I am not familiar with situation of Hungarians in Romania.
 
Now if they stayed - expelled are only most prominent Nazi collaborators. What position would they be in? Similar to Hungarians in Slovakia, who after few years after war got back their own schools, theaters and were basically able to keep Hungarian language in everyday use in areas where they were majority or they would be more oppressed? Or would Prague try to de Germanize Sudetenland by migration, forced bohemization etc?
If first would be true there is possibility Germans in Sudetenland could be after 1989 in similar positions as Hungarians in Slovakia. There was some hostility from time to time but never got to extreme and eventually Slovak Hungarians started to play important role on Slovak political scene. Of course with Germans it could be harder especially if they got a lot of support from Germany which could be due to their numbers end economical strength of Germany viewed as bigger danger to Czechs.

One thing I don't understand is why Hungarians in Slovakia got to stay, where Germans in the Czech lands did not. Why didn't the proposed Slovak/Magyar population swap go through?
 
One thing I don't understand is why Hungarians in Slovakia got to stay, where Germans in the Czech lands did not. Why didn't the proposed Slovak/Magyar population swap go through?

My understanding is that what saved the Hungarians of Slovakia was the Communist take-over. Now that Hungary had become a People's Republic, the Communists no longer shared Benes' anti-Hungarian animus. Note that the Soviets also pressured Romania into creating an autonomous Magyar region in Transylvania.
 
My understanding is that what saved the Hungarians of Slovakia was the Communist take-over. Now that Hungary had become a People's Republic, the Communists no longer shared Benes' anti-Hungarian animus. Note that the Soviets also pressured Romania into creating an autonomous Magyar region in Transylvania.

But East Germany was also Communist.

Was it, I wonder, that Slovaks did not have such pro-Soviet sentiments as the Czechs? Slovakia and Hungary and Romania were all Nazi satellites, with arguably little to distinguish between the three.
 
One thing I don't understand is why Hungarians in Slovakia got to stay, where Germans in the Czech lands did not. Why didn't the proposed Slovak/Magyar population swap go through?
Actually as far as deporration of Germans was approve in Postupim in case of Hungarians Powers were opposing it. I believe including Soviet union.

But at least partial swap went through. App 90000 Hungarians moved to Hungary and app same number of Slovaks from Jungary moved to Slovakia. In early 50-ties strong reslovakization was in process which was later more or less abandoned.
 
But East Germany was also Communist.

Was it, I wonder, that Slovaks did not have such pro-Soviet sentiments as the Czechs? Slovakia and Hungary and Romania were all Nazi satellites, with arguably little to distinguish between the three.
Slovakia indeed didn't had such strong pro communist sentiment as Czechs. Last democratic elections before communist takeover won in Slovakia Democratic party. Leading sometimes to jokes that Slovakia was only part of Europe where comminist got to power fro west. But that was not reason why most of Hungarians were able to stay.
 
My understanding is that what saved the Hungarians of Slovakia was the Communist take-over. Now that Hungary had become a People's Republic, the Communists no longer shared Benes' anti-Hungarian animus. Note that the Soviets also pressured Romania into creating an autonomous Magyar region in Transylvania.
See my other responses. Communist takeover however may help slowly to stop reslovakization as it was called.
 
A POD which makes the Expulsion of the Germans at least uncertain would need to massively change Czech-Sudeten-relations Long prior to 1938.
A Bohemian "Ausgleich" similar to the Moravian during the monarchy. Or a federal construction of the CSR. Get Benes find a love for composing symphonies and quit politics soon.

Apart from that, I see a tiny Chance if Hitler doesn't dismember/invade Czechoslovakia in March 1939 and then Czecho-Slovakia under Hacha and Tiso might become a timid puppet-state, placating Germany at every step for fear of occupation.

I am not saying this is probable - one needs a lot of Imagination....
 
A POD which makes the Expulsion of the Germans at least uncertain would need to massively change Czech-Sudeten-relations Long prior to 1938.
A Bohemian "Ausgleich" similar to the Moravian during the monarchy. Or a federal construction of the CSR. Get Benes find a love for composing symphonies and quit politics soon.

Apart from that, I see a tiny Chance if Hitler doesn't dismember/invade Czechoslovakia in March 1939 and then Czecho-Slovakia under Hacha and Tiso might become a timid puppet-state, placating Germany at every step for fear of occupation.

I am not saying this is probable - one needs a lot of Imagination....
Bigger problem then Benes was Hitler and Sudeten German Nazis.

Sudeten German socialist were for years part of different Czechoslovak governments as Ministers?

No Hitler, no Konrad Henlain, no Munich and Germans are staying.
 
Not only Socialdemocrats, also German Agararians were part of coalitions in the castle from the mid-20s onwards. This timid rapprochement proved (like so many good developments of the 1920s in Europe) too feeble to stand the ruthless 1930s. Henlein alone is a non-issue without Hitler in power in Germany. Without Hitler willing to start a war in 1938, the SdP would be in no position to force the great powers into a Munich situation.

Hitler (and the whole bloody nationalism of the age) are of course crucial problems , but getting them off the table changes the whole of Europe and is not enlightening for the question posed.

You are basically correct, but of course we do not get the expulsion of the Sudetendeutschen if we butterfly away the whole WW2 as we know it. This is, of course, simple. Either save the Weimar Republic, which is doable, or turn it into a less severe authoritarian regime in the 1930s. Even such a government would most probably not press for a war against Czechoslovakia (war against Poland is a wholly different thing, with a high chance of even a democratic Germany ending up in a short irredentist war); perhaps exert pressure / patiently negotiate to achieve some sort of autonomy statute for the Sudeten which leaves the CSR federalized (as Slovkia would certainly demand the same) but its territory completely intact.

The only tiny chance I can see in order to defuse the Pan-German nationalism of the Sudeten would be Prague and Vienna entering a defensive alliance in the 30s. That would however require a massive "jumping over the shadow", given that the CSR is a democracy and Austria had turned to its own brand of Fascism by 1934.
However, if the power struggle within Austria is resolved in a different way, or Schuschnigg is more imaginative, such an alliance would be absolutely logical, especially after Benito suddenly started to get along with Adolf instead of insisting on Austrian sovereignty:

- without the assistance of Italy, the CSR is the only neighbour of Austria which can effectively support an Austrian resistance
- from a Czechoslovak point of view, the strategic situation vs Germany after an Austrian Anschluss goes from tolerable to horrible, it is the less mountaineous and fortified border between Austria and Moravia which suddenly turns into the Achilles-heel of the Czech fortress. The independence of the CSR is secured by defending the independence of Austria.
- for many Sudetendeutsche, the cultural focal point (often also a place where relatives lived) was still Vienna, not Berlin. An alliance (plus some symbolic brimborium) would strengthen those ties again.

If this means no war breaks out, the better. If this leads to Czechs, Slovaks and Sudetengermans fighting on the Danube river alongside the Austrian Heer, this creates a wholly different narrative. If Hitler skips Austria and decides to deal with the CSR without an annexation of Austria, I am certain that Prague will fight and its prolonged defense would trigger a different European war which butterflies the Reich's massive 1939-41 successes completely away. A shorter war and less possibilities for the Nazis to further destroy the fabric of European civilization and to commit the massive number of atrocities which would justify any Anti-German measure post-war.
Even if the CSR remains alone and collapses in the end, a war between the CSR and the Reich would have meant that while some Sudetendeutsche would have committed treason to the country they were citizens of, still others would have done their duty as reservists and soldiers alongside Czechs and Slovaks. This might again change the nature of the Reichs-German treatment of the Sudeten after a Nazi victory; and then again could, if not again prevent it, lead to perhaps only a partial expulsion once the 3rd Reich collapses, similar to what happened in Alsace-Lorraine after 1918.

Of course, these are vague possibilities.
 
Top