WI/AHC: German monarchs don't abdicate after WW I

[NotYetRegistered]

Rupprecht, Crown Prince of Bavaria was popular with his people. He could've tried to reclaim the throne after his father was forced to abdicate.

Frederick Augustus III of Saxony was well-beloved by his subjects.

William II of Württemberg was considered popular.

The last two abdicated after the German Revolution, but say they don't abdicate. Could they realistically be forced out, considering their popularity? Would they eventually be forced out by the Weimar republic? Or if they were certain to be forced out (not knowledgable about German history), how could this be prevented without Germany winning WW I? And losing it in the same capacity?

 

[Saladan]

iirc the reason for a proclamation of a Republic was because (sadly I can't recall who, I think one of the leaders of the SPD?) worried the german communists would preempt them and establish a communist republic and so they panicked and did it despite their reservations of even establish a republic. From what I recall, the main desire among the various moderate parties was to keep the monarchy but reduce the Kaiser to a British style figurehead.

I think you also need to address the influence of Wilson and the French but I'm not entirely sure.

 

[Welshroyalhistory]

Rupprecht, Crown Prince of Bavaria was popular with his people. He could've tried to reclaim the throne after his father was forced to abdicate.

Frederick Augustus III of Saxony was well-beloved by his subjects.

William II of Württemberg was considered popular.

The last two abdicated after the German Revolution, but say they don't abdicate. Could they realistically be forced out, considering their popularity? Would they eventually be forced out by the Weimar republic? Or if they were certain to be forced out (not knowledgable about German history), how could this be prevented without Germany winning WW I? And losing it in the same capacity?

I agree, many of the German monarchs remained incredibly popular and were able to negotiate stonkingly good "redundancy" packages well into the 1920s, which is remarkable when you consider how the Austrian, Italian and Greek royal families were treated.

I think many of the rulers abdicated perhaps with the assumption that it was a short term measure and they would be restored once the immediate hysteria had calmed down.

I would love to see a detailed scenario how this could be achieved, the most obvious case being Bavaria, where the Wittlesbach dynasty continue to assume a public role, still reside in their old royal palaces and are treated with a certain degree of deference.

An independent Bavaria after WW1 might have been the best way to achieve the restoration of the monarchy there.

 

[jkarr]

I would love to see a detailed scenario how this could be achieved, the most obvious case being Bavaria, where the Wittlesbach dynasty continue to assume a public role, still reside in their old royal palaces and are treated with a certain degree of deference.

An independent Bavaria after WW1 might have been the best way to achieve the restoration of the monarchy there.

This i would love to see as well....if for nothing else than to stop Graff cutting up the Wittelsbach diamond

 

[Blair]

How successful would a proclamation of independence be for Bavaria, Saxony, and Württemberg? I would think that the Weiwar could crush them but I doubt men like Hindenburg would be enthusiastic about turning fire on their patriotic countrymen (as opposed to godless socialists of course). That being said Hindenburg did urge Wilhelm to flee rather than go through with his fantastical plan to continue only as King of Prussia. So is independence the best shot for these popular monarchs?

 

[Kablob]

How successful would a proclamation of independence be for Bavaria, Saxony, and Württemberg? I would think that the Weiwar could crush them but I doubt men like Hindenburg would be enthusiastic about turning fire on their patriotic countrymen (as opposed to godless socialists of course). That being said Hindenburg did urge Wilhelm to flee rather than go through with his fantastical plan to continue only as King of Prussia. So is independence the best shot for these popular monarchs?

I would hope Baden would become independent too, if only for the sake of the borders.

 

[Welshroyalhistory]

How successful would a proclamation of independence be for Bavaria, Saxony, and Württemberg? I would think that the Weiwar could crush them but I doubt men like Hindenburg would be enthusiastic about turning fire on their patriotic countrymen (as opposed to godless socialists of course). That being said Hindenburg did urge Wilhelm to flee rather than go through with his fantastical plan to continue only as King of Prussia. So is independence the best shot for these popular monarchs?

I am not too sure about Saxony, Wurttemberg, Baden etc but Bavaria has always existed as being slightly separate from the rest of Germany, in many ways it is the bridge between Germany and Austria. Bavaria has a distinct culture from Germany, you could compare it to modern day Scotland or Catalonia.

Assuming Bavarian nationalism erupted say in 1922 and there was a huge demand for independence, would the German government have the military capacity and the money to stop it by force if necessary. After all the legitimate German government was not able to sufficiently prevent the SS and other rival private groups in the 1920s taking "policing" into its own hands.

Would Germany's neighbors allow Germany to use force in order to keep Germany together?

I can't see that France for example would object if one of Germany's richest and most cultured provinces decided to become independent, the result after all is a weakened Germany, which to French eyes has to be a good thing.

The problem of course is that none of the former Royal monarchs really seemed prepared to really fight/push for restoration, they would have no doubt accepted it had it been pushed on them by mass public demand but at no point in the 1920s did Rupprecht try to push himself onto the people of Bavaria, he would have undoubtedly had found many followers if he had but he didn't seem that inclined.

 

[Blair]

The problem of course is that none of the former Royal monarchs really seemed prepared to really fight/push for restoration, they would have no doubt accepted it had it been pushed on them by mass public demand but at no point in the 1920s did Rupprecht try to push himself onto the people of Bavaria, he would have undoubtedly had found many followers if he had but he didn't seem that inclined.

That being said if the movement really did get going I highly doubt he wouldn't go along for the ride so to speak, the hard part is getting a cohesive movement together in the first place... any POD's in mind anyone?

 

[Maniakes]

Would Germany's neighbors allow Germany to use force in order to keep Germany together?

A lot would depend on reparations payments, I expect. Wiemar would be even more hard-pressed than IOTL to keep up with reparations payments without Bavaria, etc, and France and Britain are counting on reparations money to make payments on their own war debts.

If the seceding states were to agree to assume an appropriate share of reparations, France and Britain would probably welcome a German breakup. On the other hand, if they refuse to make reparations payments, the France and Britain would probably actively support the Wiemar government in order to keep the money flowing.

 

[Welshroyalhistory]

That being said if the movement really did get going I highly doubt he wouldn't go along for the ride so to speak, the hard part is getting a cohesive movement together in the first place... any POD's in mind anyone?

There were certainly opportunities as these newspaper articles from the time suggest but Rupprecht seemed unwilling to act. I suppose having seen Emperor Karl's failure in Hungary he may have taken the view it was doomed to end in failure unless the return to a monarchy was determined by a referendum rather than a coup.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...dN5PAAAAIBAJ&sjid=uVQDAAAAIBAJ&pg=1809,672670
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F00E12FF3C5D14738DDDA80894DC405B818EF1D3

Wikipedia also provides an interesting overview of Bavarian monarchism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarchism_in_Bavaria_after_1918

 

[Welshroyalhistory]

A lot would depend on reparations payments, I expect. Wiemar would be even more hard-pressed than IOTL to keep up with reparations payments without Bavaria, etc, and France and Britain are counting on reparations money to make payments on their own war debts.

If the seceding states were to agree to assume an appropriate share of reparations, France and Britain would probably welcome a German breakup. On the other hand, if they refuse to make reparations payments, the France and Britain would probably actively support the Wiemar government in order to keep the money flowing.

Certainly from a French perspective it seems a chicken and the egg scenario, they would have liked a weaker, smaller Germany but also wanted to keep getting German money.

At the end of the day it would have been a balancing act as to which was more important. Pragmatically it may have been better for France to support Bavarian independence against Germany, thus securing Bavaria as an ally and increasing enmity between the Bavarians and Germany.

 

[New Yorker]

This is a favorite scenarios mine. All the German monarchs keep their thrones. That said, I don't know that it could be done.

What has always puzzled me is that no one - no one - came to the support of most of the monarchs, especially Karl in Austria who arguably deserved the most support.