WI/AHC: A Jewish Pharoah leads to a Jewish Egypt?

[The Admiral Hook]

While the theory that the "habiru" were Hebrews is tenuous and widely agreed upon to be false, I couldn't help but wondering...

At what point during the historical period in which the ancient Hebrews are said to have been in and around Egypt might an Egyptian Pharaoh have converted, established a state religion that is Judaism peppered with Egyptian mythology and religion, and established Egypt as the homeland of the Jews?

Now, I know this seems absurd if you don't believe either the ancient accounts or Biblical passages, and I don't blame you, but let's say that if it isn't true then we'll assume that's the POD: a Jewish or proto-Jewish ethno-religion ending up in Egypt and converting the Pharaoh.

What would the effects on the faith be throughout the ancient era? What might change about Egypt and Egyptian history? Biblical history?

Might the Jewish Egyptians have been more expansionist and warlike? It seems that the Old Testament Jews were very hostile due to a jealous God commanding them to take the land of the unbelievers.

Anyway, I could speculate all day. It's your turn.

Ancient Egypt as the Promised Land?

EDIT: Oh! I almost forgot. If the consensus is that this is ASB (and it very well might be) I'm not opposed to having it moved, as long as some discussion is generated as well - and not just, "ASBz!! Plz move! lol!1!"

EDIT 2: And I just realized I spelled Pharaoh wrong in the title... don't judge.

 

[Falecius]

My understanding is that, in a sense, the Habiru were Hebrews. Better put, the Hebrews are likely to have emerged out of a subset of the Habiru, who were, to the best of my knowledge, more a social than an ethnic notion. However, nothing identifiable as "Hebrews" in the more modern sense seems to have existed in any recognizable form until pretty late in Egyptian history, and anyway, the vast majority of the evidence we have appears to put them firmly in Palestine, not Egypt.
The events of the Exodus, or the presence of an identifiable "Hebrew" population in Egypt proper at any time during the Bronze Age, are simply not mirrored in written or archeological evidence known to us. Peoples that may have been ancestral to would-be Hebrews, or closely related, are likely to have lived in Egypt during the Second Intermediate in the form of "Hyksos", but the cultural features that would define the Hebrews as an ethnicity did not exist even embryonically at the point, as far as archeological evidence goes.
Monotheism, or even Monolatry or Henotheism, appear to be an Iron Age feature occurring in Palestine. Hebrews professing this would live in Egypt only in the last couple of centuries before the end of the Pharaonic state, and are fairly unlikely to be anywhere near to a position to convert the Pharaoh. Prior to that, there was simply not much to convert to.
Even later, religion tended to be closely entwined with state and "nation", making any such shift insanely problematic in terms of political results. The early Israelite polities were not prestigious relative to Egypt, except maybe at the time of Salomon, when the Hebrews appear to have been still fairly standard polytheists with a typical emphasis on YHWH as a national God.
Would would be the point of converting?
However, let's say that a Saite Pharaoh is personally convinced that the religion of the fledgling kingdom of Judah (then pointing strongly toward monotheism) is true and embraces it. Some Jews lived in Egypt at that point, though not in very large numbers. Doing so would massively undermine his position within Egypt (that, after all, rested upon him being the manifestation of God, a notion that worked very poorly with Hebrew religious and political conceptions*) and majorly piss off the Egyptian higher-ups, many of which happen to be priests of gods that aren't YHWH. The most likely outcome is horrible backfiring of the whole thing, with the Yahwist Pharaoh either killed, dethroned or forced to reconsider.

* Heck, it could be said that the whole point of the Hebrews being there in first place and having the religion they have is a reaction against the entire "The King is God on Earth" sort of business.

 

[The Wandering Poet]

The problem with this scenario is that it is neither plausible regarding the archaeology or Biblical text. In the Bible the Israelites are not distinct until they are rescued by Yahweh and taught his commandments at Mount Sinai. Archaeology would know suggest that the Hebrews arose in Palestine, and even then it took many centuries for Yahwehism to become dominant.

I think a more possible situation would be the Jewish exiles who chose to go to Egypt after the fall of Jerusalem... not plausible but at least possible.

 

[The Admiral Hook]

My understanding is that, in a sense, the Habiru were Hebrews. Better put, the Hebrews are likely to have emerged out of a subset of the Habiru, who were, to the best of my knowledge, more a social than an ethnic notion. However, nothing identifiable as "Hebrews" in the more modern sense seems to have existed in any recognizable form until pretty late in Egyptian history, and anyway, the vast majority of the evidence we have appears to put them firmly in Palestine, not Egypt.
The events of the Exodus, or the presence of an identifiable "Hebrew" population in Egypt proper at any time during the Bronze Age, are simply not mirrored in written or archeological evidence known to us. Peoples that may have been ancestral to would-be Hebrews, or closely related, are likely to have lived in Egypt during the Second Intermediate in the form of "Hyksos", but the cultural features that would define the Hebrews as an ethnicity did not exist even embryonically at the point, as far as archeological evidence goes.
Monotheism, or even Monolatry or Henotheism, appear to be an Iron Age feature occurring in Palestine. Hebrews professing this would live in Egypt only in the last couple of centuries before the end of the Pharaonic state, and are fairly unlikely to be anywhere near to a position to convert the Pharaoh. Prior to that, there was simply not much to convert to.
Even later, religion tended to be closely entwined with state and "nation", making any such shift insanely problematic in terms of political results. The early Israelite polities were not prestigious relative to Egypt, except maybe at the time of Salomon, when the Hebrews appear to have been still fairly standard polytheists with a typical emphasis on YHWH as a national God.
Would would be the point of converting?
However, let's say that a Saite Pharaoh is personally convinced that the religion of the fledgling kingdom of Judah (then pointing strongly toward monotheism) is true and embraces it. Some Jews lived in Egypt at that point, though not in very large numbers. Doing so would massively undermine his position within Egypt (that, after all, rested upon him being the manifestation of God, a notion that worked very poorly with Hebrew religious and political conceptions*) and majorly piss off the Egyptian higher-ups, many of which happen to be priests of gods that aren't YHWH. The most likely outcome is horrible backfiring of the whole thing, with the Yahwist Pharaoh either killed, dethroned or forced to reconsider.

* Heck, it could be said that the whole point of the Hebrews being there in first place and having the religion they have is a reaction against the entire "The King is God on Earth" sort of business.

First off, thanks for the thoughtful response, the honesty, and the scenario.

Going with the (admittedly unlikely) attempt at fulfilling my challenge - and again, thank you; this might be the best answer I could have received - are we going to go with Psamtik I?

I don't know anything about him, but from a cursory wiki search it seems he went to war against Babylon, during a period of time which is likely to have been contemporary to Nebuchadnezzar II's conquest of Jerusalem.

So, if Psamtik does convert and adds Hebrew warriors to his own army and the Greek mercenaries it seems he used, he may have a better chance of conquering Babylon, yes?

From there, he could gradually introduce a Judaism more heavily influenced by Egyptian mytho-religion as the state religion, with a purge enacted by his new religious guard, perhaps an order of Jewish warrior-priests who answer to God by way of the Pharaoh?

I could also see more conquests if the Babylon campaign is successful.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Oracle of Sobek 𓆋]

Biblical scholars disagree on exactly when the Hebrews are said to have been in Egypt (not surprising, since no extra-Biblical evidence suggests that they ever were), but most use Biblical chronology to put them there at some point in the New Kingdom. Ahmose/Iahames, Amenhotep II, Thutmose III & IV, Akhenaten, Horemheb, Ramesses I & II, and Merneptah have all been suggested as candidates, but it's important to note that the reign of the last occured more than 300 years after the reign of the first, so we're not dealing with a small temporal window, here. Of all of them, Merneptah is the only pharaoh whose regnal records document a land/people called "Israel", and then only in passing, and placing them firmly in Palestine.

As to conversion, it's important to note that Judaism was not extant in any meaningful or recognizable sense at this time, but let's handwave that and put monotheistic Jews in Egypt dring the reign of one of these pharaohs (so yeah, this premise is ASB)... What possible reason would they have to convert? The office of pharaoh (which was not a term until the reign of Thutmose III - and then it referred to the office of kingship, not to the monarch's person) was deeply tied to Egyptian religion. Akhenaten might be swayed by Jewish monotheism since he clearly had no problems stretching Egyptian religion to that conclusion, but why wouldn't he just incorporate Jewish ideas into the nascent Atenism which would be more readily identifiable to the Egyptian populace?

Otherwise, the Saite period is the earliest when there were actual Jews in Egypt, as Falecius said, but the only reason one of them might convert would be to undermine the power of the Amun-Ra priesthood (though they would likely turn the entire country against them in the process).

 

[The Admiral Hook]

I just reread and discovered I misunderstood when the Saite Pharaohs were. Still, the scenario I posited makes some sense considering the geo-political situation at the time.

Leaders randomly convert for all sorts of silly reasons to all sorts of legitimate faiths all the time.

A Pharaoh pulling a Constantine is unlikely but not impossible, and he very well may succeed...

 

[The Admiral Hook]

Biblical scholars disagree on exactly when the Hebrews are said to have been in Egypt (not surprising, since no extra-Biblical evidence suggests that they ever were), but most use Biblical chronology to put them there at some point in the New Kingdom. Ahmose/Iahames, Amenhotep II, Thutmose III & IV, Akhenaten, Horemheb, Ramesses I & II, and Merneptah have all been suggested as candidates, but it's important to note that the reign of the last occured more than 300 years after the reign of the first, so we're not dealing with a small temporal window, here. Of all of them, Merneptah is the only pharaoh whose regnal records document a land/people called "Israel", and then only in passing, and placing them firmly in Palestine.

As to conversion, it's important to note that Judaism was not extant in any meaningful or recognizable sense at this time, but let's handwave that and put monotheistic Jews in Egypt dring the reign of one of these pharaohs (so yeah, this premise is ASB)... What possible reason would they have to convert? The office of pharaoh (which was not a term until the reign of Thutmose III - and then it referred to the office of kingship, not to the monarch's person) was deeply tied to Egyptian religion. Akhenaten might be swayed by Jewish monotheism since he clearly had no problems stretching Egyptian religion to that conclusion, but why wouldn't he just incorporate Jewish ideas into the nascent Atenism which would be more readily identifiable to the Egyptian populace?

Otherwise, the Saite period is the earliest when there were actual Jews in Egypt, as Falecius said, but the only reason one of them might convert would be to undermine the power of the Amun-Ra priesthood (though they would likely turn the entire country against them in the process).

I always thought of Amun-Re as being similar enough to YHWH to be amalgamated. Am I wrong?

 

[Just a Rube]

Well, Akhenaten's experience doesn't exactly suggest a positive outcome for any pharaoh attempting to convert Egypt to monotheism.

 

[Oracle of Sobek 𓆋]

I always thought of Amun-Re as being similar enough to YHWH to be amalgamated. Am I wrong?

They're both creator gods, but the similarities basically end there. Also, Jewish scripture explicitly identifies Amun several times as a foreign god, so I doubt the Rabbinical establishment would accept an amalgamation of Amun-YHWH.

 

[SlyDessertFox]

Could a Ptolemy get interested in Judaism? Alexandria had a nice sized Jewish community after all.

 

[The Admiral Hook]

Well, Akhenaten's experience doesn't exactly suggest a positive outcome for any pharaoh attempting to convert Egypt to monotheism.

They're both creator gods, but the similarities basically end there. Also, Jewish scripture explicitly idetifies Amun several times as a foreign god, so I doubt the Rabbinical establishment wold accept an amalgamation of Amun-YHWH.

Well, that's a bummer. Because I was interested in the prophetic expectation resulting from a marriage of the line of the Pharaohs and the line of David, i.e. the Messiah would be expected to be a future Egyptian Pharaoh...

King of Egypt, King of the Jews... son of Amun-YHWH! Goodness...

 

[Falecius]

First off, thanks for the thoughtful response, the honesty, and the scenario.

Going with the (admittedly unlikely) attempt at fulfilling my challenge - and again, thank you; this might be the best answer I could have received - are we going to go with Psamtik I?

I don't know anything about him, but from a cursory wiki search it seems he went to war against Babylon, during a period of time which is likely to have been contemporary to Nebuchadnezzar II's conquest of Jerusalem.

So, if Psamtik does convert and adds Hebrew warriors to his own army and the Greek mercenaries it seems he used, he may have a better chance of conquering Babylon, yes?

From there, he could gradually introduce a Judaism more heavily influenced by Egyptian mytho-religion as the state religion, with a purge enacted by his new religious guard, perhaps an order of Jewish warrior-priests who answer to God by way of the Pharaoh?

I could also see more conquests if the Babylon campaign is successful.

What are your thoughts?

Without checking my shaky remembrances on the period. Egypt was an ally of Judah against Babylon, although that alliance is depicted by the Bible as controversial in Jerusalem. Conquest of Babylon is out of question, keeping Babylonian power in check was the most Egypt hoped for, although establishing vassals in Palestine/Syria was the best case scenario. In that timeframe, closer ties with the Jews are actually in the cards.
Suggestion: what about a royal marriage that introduces (proto-)Judaism at court. Instead of a Pharaoh converting, you could have one who is raised in Judaism by his mother, wife of the preceding one, from the start. Forcing it into the rest of Egypt is still very likely to be almost impossible, but let's say that a major victory over Babylon is seen a sign that YHWH is favring the new course.
Of course, this butterflies Judaism as we know it out of existence. To fit Yahvism into the Egyptian views would require major readjustment, and the faith wasn't on a very firm ground even in Jerusalem. The vast majority of the Old Testament was not even there in any written form back then (Deuteronomy and the legislative parts of Exous might have been written under Josiah, of course there are some prophetic texts dated to that era though the bulk is thought to be later, some Psalms are much earlier IIRC, and parts of the Book of the Judges are also very old, but I think it's more or less about it) though a more significant part of the relevant material was probably already circulating orally, in forms that may have differed quite markedly from what we have.
Very low chance, but extremely big impact.

 

[Oracle of Sobek 𓆋]

*Good analysis snipped*

This. Essentially, Judaism would be Egyptianized. Egypt would likely not be "Judaized".

 

[The Admiral Hook]

Without checking my shaky remembrances on the period. Egypt was an ally of Judah against Babylon, although that alliance is depicted by the Bible as controversial in Jerusalem. Conquest of Babylon is out of question, keeping Babylonian power in check was the most Egypt hoped for, although establishing vassals in Palestine/Syria was the best case scenario. In that timeframe, closer ties with the Jews are actually in the cards.
Suggestion: what about a royal marriage that introduces (proto-)Judaism at court. Instead of a Pharaoh converting, you could have one who is raised in Judaism by his mother, wife of the preceding one, from the start. Forcing it into the rest of Egypt is still very likely to be almost impossible, but let's say that a major victory over Babylon is seen a sign that YHWH is favring the new course.
Of course, this butterflies Judaism as we know it out of existence. To fit Yahvism into the Egyptian views would require major readjustment, and the faith wasn't on a very firm ground even in Jerusalem. The vast majority of the Old Testament was not even there in any written form back then (Deuteronomy and the legislative parts of Exous might have been written under Josiah, of course there are some prophetic texts dated to that era though the bulk is thought to be later, some Psalms are much earlier IIRC, and parts of the Book of the Judges are also very old, but I think it's more or less about it) though a more significant part of the relevant material was probably already circulating orally, in forms that may have differed quite markedly from what we have.
Very low chance, but extremely big impact.

This. Essentially, Judaism would be Egyptianized. Egypt would likely not be "Judaized".

That works. Dynastic marriage changing Judaism and a Babylon that's kept in check is as interesting or moreso than the shaky scenario I had envisioned.

Care to go a bit further and hypothesize on the effects on the next couple hundred years of history?

I would do my own research and do it myself, you see, but the whole period is too overwhelming for me to do anything but sit and read your thoughts on it... haha.

What does an Egyptianized Judaism look like? What would an Egyptian Pharaohnic dynasty that holds God's promise to the Hebrews eventually look like?

It's exciting to me, I admit.

 

[Falecius]

Having checked the dates, Psamtik I is probably too early to work.
The one fighting the Babylonians was his son Necho II, and he did so against the Hebrews. His successors Psamtik II or Apries appear to offer marginally better possibilities insofar they gave support to Jerusalem against Nebuchadnezzar.

Edit: on another level, Psamtik I is rarely well-placed to initiate a religious reform, as the liberator and reunifier of the country. The problem is that he's contemporary with Josiah, so that there's not much recognizable Judaism around still. Jewish monotheism is actually in the process of establishing itself at this point, I understand.

 

[Falecius]

Could a Ptolemy get interested in Judaism? Alexandria had a nice sized Jewish community after all.

Some were, at last in an academic sense. They sponsored the Septuaginta I think.

 

[Oracle of Sobek 𓆋]

That works. Dynastic marriage changing Judaism and a Babylon that's kept in check is as interesting or moreso than the shaky scenario I had envisioned.

Care to go a bit further and hypothesize on the effects on the next couple hundred years of history?

I would do my own research and do it myself, you see, but the whole period is too overwhelming for me to do anything but sit and read your thoughts on it... haha.

What does an Egyptianized Judaism look like? What would an Egyptian Pharaohnic dynasty that holds God's promise to the Hebrews eventually look like?

It's exciting to me, I admit.

Well, Judaism at the time was largely henotheistic with monolatrist tendencies (especially after the reign of Josiah, who was a contemporary of Psamtjek I and, according to the Bible, died in battle against Psamtjek's son and heir, Nekau II). It's possible that if Egypt establishes a firm hegemony over Judah, that Hebrew religion could be foced to accept Amun-Ra as a hegemonic deity over Yahweh, the patron of Israel and Judah. The Egyptians for their part could integrate Yahweh into their pantheon (they did so with several other Levantine gods, such as Resheph and Astarte), and establish a state-sponsored cult of Yahweh alongside the other major cults (Amun-Ra, Ptah, Thoth, Isis, etc.)

Basically, Judaism remains henotheistic but with two gods in a position of primacy. Yahweh protects Israel, and Amun (and, by extention Egypt) protects Yahweh, and therefore Israel also.

Though, that may be a bit too humiliating a propect for the Yahwist priesthood to swallow, so you'd need a galvanizing event on par with the Babylonian Captivity that nudged Judaism into monotheism in OTL. Maybe a long, bitter war erupts between Judah and Babylon, resulting in culturally traumatic levels of death and destruction, and only ends when the Egyptians intervene?

 

[Falecius]

That works. Dynastic marriage changing Judaism and a Babylon that's kept in check is as interesting or moreso than the shaky scenario I had envisioned.

Care to go a bit further and hypothesize on the effects on the next couple hundred years of history?

I would do my own research and do it myself, you see, but the whole period is too overwhelming for me to do anything but sit and read your thoughts on it... haha.

What does an Egyptianized Judaism look like? What would an Egyptian Pharaohnic dynasty that holds God's promise to the Hebrews eventually look like?

It's exciting to me, I admit.

Well, nothing in the scenario seems to impact the rise of Persia in a major way, so let's ignore butterflies for now and assume it happens. ITTL, Egypt has an Asian sphere of influence, however, that means that the clash with Persia is likely to take place significantly earlier.
The Persians also happen to appear already headed on the path to their own form of Monotheism, if no quite there yet... so you have Imperial Great Powers with ideologicaly opposed brand-new Axial universalist monotheisms clashing epically for control of the Middle East. A bit convergent.

Another point.
IOTL, the last Babylonian king Nabu-Na'id is reported to have quit Babylon for several years to establish his capital in Teima, deep into the desertic areas of what is now northwestern Saudi Arabia. The politics of that move, that was controversial to say the least back home in Babylon, are not very clear but seem to relate to a greater significance of the commercial routes and urban centers along the Incense Route through Arabia.
This Egypt, if controlling Palestine, is even better placed, both ideologically and geographically, to give attention to this sector. You may see serious attempts to convert the Arabs to Egyptianized Judaism and to bring them into some sort of political subservience to Egypt. Arabia may actually become the locus of proxy wars with Persia (who probably controls its Eastern shore or most of it) with competition for trade routes taking the form of cities an tribes being courted by "missionaries".
The perfect breeding environment for a homegrown Prophet, isn't it?

 

[The Admiral Hook]

Well, nothing in the scenario seems to impact the rise of Persia in a major way, so let's ignore butterflies for now and assume it happens. ITTL, Egypt has an Asian sphere of influence, however, that means that the clash with Persia is likely to take place significantly earlier.
The Persians also happen to appear already headed on the path to their own form of Monotheism, if no quite there yet... so you have Imperial Great Powers with ideologicaly opposed brand-new Axial universalist monotheisms clashing epically for control of the Middle East. A bit convergent.

Another point.
IOTL, the last Babylonian king Nabu-Na'id is reported to have quit Babylon for several years to establish his capital in Teima, deep into the desertic areas of what is now northwestern Saudi Arabia. The politics of that move, that was controversial to say the least back home in Babylon, are not very clear but seem to relate to a greater significance of the commercial routes and urban centers along the Incense Route through Arabia.
This Egypt, if controlling Palestine, is even better placed, both ideologically and geographically, to give attention to this sector. You may see serious attempts to convert the Arabs to Egyptianized Judaism and to bring them into some sort of political subservience to Egypt. Arabia may actually become the locus of proxy wars with Persia (who probably controls its Eastern shore or most of it) with competition for trade routes taking the form of cities an tribes being courted by "missionaries".
The perfect breeding environment for a homegrown Prophet, isn't it?

The truth is often stranger than fiction...

I think someone with know-how should do a TL of this. I will sub instantly and read religiously... no pun intended.

An Egyptian Arabia is interesting enough in and of itself, but one that has the Jewish God in its pantheon and Hebrews loyal to the Pharaoh is even more-so.

Perhaps a reconvergence of the lines of Abraham/Jacob with the lines of Ishmael/Esau could provide even further religious fun down the line...

Holy Egyptarabian Muhammad Christ...

Anyway, the incense trade routes in Arabia could make the region very profitable for the Egyptians. I wouldn't be surprised if the area becomes well settled and Egyptianized.

God, what a good scenario you've developed.

Make the TL. Find the time and do it!

 

[Falecius]

Well, Judaism at the time was largely henotheistic with monolatrist tendencies (especially after the reign of Josiah, who was a contemporary of Psamtjek I and, according to the Bible, died in battle against Psamtjek's son and heir, Nekau II). It's possible that if Egypt establishes a firm hegemony over Judah, that Hebrew religion could be foced to accept Amun-Ra as a hegemonic deity over Yahweh, the patron of Israel and Judah. The Egyptians for their part could integrate Yahweh into their pantheon (they did so with several other Levantine gods, such as Resheph and Astarte), and establish a state-sponsored cult of Yahweh alongside the other major cults (Amun-Ra, Ptah, Thoth, Isis, etc.)

Basically, Judaism remains henotheistic but with two gods in a position of primacy. Yahweh protects Israel, and Amun (and, by extention Egypt) protects Yahweh, and therefore Israel also.

Though, that may be a bit too humiliating a propect for the Yahwist priesthood to swallow, so you'd need a galvanizing event on par with the Babylonian Captivity that nudged Judaism into monotheism in OTL. Maybe a long, bitter war erupts between Judah and Babylon, resulting in culturally traumatic levels of death and destruction, and only ends when the Egyptians intervene?

What about a conflation of Amun-Ra and YHWH instead of a justapoxition? Like, YHWH being the "Ra in Canaan" ?
Or maybe playing with the "Two Land" concept, adding Palestine as a "Third Land" with YHWH put alongside the Two Ladies and all the three understoo as geographically-specific hypostases of the God of the Gods, Amon-Ra who manifests Himself through the King of the Three Lands.
A bit of a stretch and a violence on the Egyptocentric world-image of Egyptian religion, but working within existing ideas.