WI: Affects of Canadian Caribbean on the country?

In favor of the Canadian Ring of pearls, many businessmen and Canadian economic elite were in favor of beinging the Caribbean into the Confederation as to gain the tax revenues and broader domestic market, as well as gove Canada more clout in regards to the New World and the Commonwealth.
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Precisely. It was Canadian investors who helped persuade the Bahamian government to push for unification with Canada in 1911 after all.

Incidentally, the "Little 8" terminology, while a convenient shorthand ;-) would probably be more accurately described as the "Little 9" in that era (Virgin Islands, Antigua-Barbuda, Montserrat, St. Christopher-Nevis-Anguilla, Dominica, Barbados, Grenada, St. Lucia, and St. Vincent) since the Virgin Islands would likely be transferred with the rest of the lot.


What makes me not agree with TFSmith is the fact that, as significant as the difficulties would undoubtedly be, I can see it possible for Canada to accept the idea of Ottawa being the leaders of the British territories in the Caribbean. Laurier would probably approve of it in his hope of making Canada a world power, and I can also see Borden potentially being a supporter of it.

As noted before.

Canada by the end of WWI had a very large merchant marine and a growing Navy, and I can see Ottawa actually considering the idea out of the idea of having more power and influence within the Empire. The fact that this would effectively force Ottawa to accept the people of the West Indies as citizens sooner rather than later is a point that I would not bet on Borden liking much, but I'd bet on Mackenzie King probably being approving of, and after WWII the problems with the racial difference would probably melt away.


Which would trend towards the path towards the West Indians demanding provincial status and full equal rights I was theorizing on before, provided that the period between 1920 and 1950 doesn't result in West Indians and mainland Canadians eventually coming to the conclusion that the West Indian territories would be better off being independent from Canada. Given the social changes you noted which were already ongoing in Canada, this would seem like a less likely prospect actually.

Is it difficult? Yes. Is it ASB? Absolutely not. It would depend on what Britain was willing to give up, what Canada was willing to give to the people of the West Indies and what the people there were willing to accept. The idea of minimal representation isn't gonna fly with either Ottawa or the islands, so while territorial status would be likely early on, it would have to evolve into provinces at some point in the not-too-distant future, as both Ottawa and the islands would demand it.

Exactly. On the issue of representation, the transfer might involve the West Indian territories all being added to Canada and each territory probably having one representative each in parliament, unless the Canadians decide to do something like what happened with Yukon and a part of the Northwest Territories (Mackenzie River) in 1949 and just group all of the separate West Indian territories together as a single federal electoral riding (which might actually be a compromise interim measure between granting each territory it's own representative and outright excluding representation from any of the West Indian territories as some would have preferred).

Where the Canadians could probably really offer a lot of the West Indian territories something they wanted would be in terms of internal representative government. By 1919 a number of colonies in the area were more or less ruled directly by the governors (sometimes with the assistance of advisory bodies or a purely or mostly nominated council or assembly): Trinidad & Tobago, St. Vincent, Grenada, St. Lucia, and a number of the Leeward Islands (until 1925 in OTL when a minority of elected members were introduced into the legislative councils for at least some of them)

British Guiana and Jamaica by this point had councils with mostly or all elected members which additionally had responsibility for financial affairs. However for some time after elections were reintroduced in the 1880s, there existed the possibility for Governor to appoint more members so that the nominated members could out-number the elected members.

In fact, only in British Guiana, British Honduras, Barbados, the Bahamas and Bermuda were older representative systems of government retained up to 1919 (British Guiana's own would be abolished in 1928 OTL). And in all of the colonies the franchise was fairly narrow well into the 1940s.

Possibly then Canada might offer the West Indian colonies a more uniform set of representative governments for each territory and possibly at least universal adult (male) suffrage and responsible government (sort of like what occurred with the Northwest Territories in the 1890s).

Thus for the time being (the 1920s) the West Indian colonies would gain more responsible local/territorial governments even if federal representation was initially restricted. As Canada changed socially, the West Indian territorial governments would probably gain more responsibility and separate federal ridings would be created for each territory (or they would be introduced for each territory if there wasn't any representation in the Canadian parliament initially after the transfer).
 
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Which would trend towards the path towards the West Indians demanding provincial status and full equal rights I was theorizing on before, provided that the period between 1920 and 1950 doesn't result in West Indians and mainland Canadians eventually coming to the conclusion that the West Indian territories would be better off being independent from Canada. Given the social changes you noted which were already ongoing in Canada, this would seem like a less likely prospect actually.

I agree, and that would surely be supercharged in this world. Canadians traveling would surely spend less of their dollars in Florida or California or Cuba or Mexico and more on their own soil, no? On top of that, the steady (and quite inevitable save laws to stop it, which would be unlikely) migration of thousands if not tens of thousands of white Canadians (and potentially new immigrants, which Canada was still taking in many of during the interwar period) into the islands would create more social interaction between races and ethnicities, as everything including simple geography would make big divisions largely impossible. And that is before the very likely prospect of racially-mixed divisions during WWII and the results of that. Canada began shifting dramatically in terms of views on ethnicity during WWII, and in this world the massive divisions between English Canadians, French Canadians, new immigrants and the African and Asian descent Canadians from the West Indies would make that move earlier, and if they are fighting together during WWII, that much stronger earlier. It would by no means eliminate racism, but it would create a whole class of war veterans who had fought with men of other colors and ethnicities and done so with distinction, which makes it rather harder to be a racist. Hell, if you wanna rattle Hitler's cage a little bit, make sure he knows of the black and Indian members of the Canadian Army - "See you little bastard! See how the black men of the West Indies Regiments of the Canadian Army just whupped the asses of a force of the mighty Waffen-SS! See how your little idea of racial supremacy just got shot to shit by the same army which you and your colleagues feared last time!" Might just rattle his cage just that little bit more.... :)
 
It would be good for the maritimes, I think. More trade and cultural and social links between the Atlantic provinces and the Caribbean. Probably a lot of immigration going both ways. Resource exchange. I could see it jumpstarting the traditionally moribund Atlantic provinces economies. And I could see it being good for the Caribbean economies.

Then there's transfers and equalisations. Probably better standards of living for the Caribbean peoples, more economic investment and opportunity. Lots and lots more tourism from Canada.

Huge cultural influence on Maritime country and folk music, possibly some going the other way. Whole new styles of music, and a lot more expansion and accessibility of music.

They'd inevitably form a very loose voting bloc roughly equivalent to Quebec or the West.

It would be a more interesting, more diverse Canada.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
You may want to consider the realities of mobilization for

... And that is before the very likely prospect of racially-mixed divisions during WWII and the results of that. Canada began shifting dramatically in terms of views on ethnicity during WWII, and in this world the massive divisions between English Canadians, French Canadians, new immigrants and the African and Asian descent Canadians from the West Indies would make that move earlier, and if they are fighting together during WWII, that much stronger earlier. It would by no means eliminate racism, but it would create a whole class of war veterans who had fought with men of other colors and ethnicities and done so with distinction, which makes it rather harder to be a racist. Hell, if you wanna rattle Hitler's cage a little bit, make sure he knows of the black and Indian members of the Canadian Army - "See you little bastard! See how the black men of the West Indies Regiments of the Canadian Army just whupped the asses of a force of the mighty Waffen-SS! See how your little idea of racial supremacy just got shot to shit by the same army which you and your colleagues feared last time!" Might just rattle his cage just that little bit more.... :)

You may want to consider the realities of mobilization for both Canada and the British West Indies during WW II...

Exactly one battalion of volunteers raised in the Caribbean went to the ETO from the BWI, and was assigned largely to security duties in the Med; after the experience of WW I, not really surprising.

Likewise, given the realities of Canadian mobilization in WW II, trying conscription in the Caribbean would end --- poorly.:rolleyes:

Speaking of "the zombies..."

Likewise, there's rather a surprising level of Kipling, circa-1899, in some of this:confused:
The_white_mans_burden.gif


Best,
 
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To be fair, we are talking from the point of view of imperial runnings, white mans burden is unavoidable in understanding the thinkings of the time. Even so: the Canadian empire in the Caribbean is certainly going to be somewhat shameful as a colonial legacy. Ultimately certainly the Big Two and perhaps Guyana and Belize could move to independence and run a path independent of Canada with their own successes and failures. I personally doubt the demographic clout of the other islands even together to push away from Canadian dominance, with many of the Little 8 (9) having popular support of union with Canada. Unfortunately I'm biased as a Trini taking into regard the rest of the Caribbean's perspective.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
The other obvious parallels are PNG and Australia...

To be fair, we are talking from the point of view of imperial runnings, white mans burden is unavoidable in understanding the thinkings of the time. Even so: the Canadian empire in the Caribbean is certainly going to be somewhat shameful as a colonial legacy. Ultimately certainly the Big Two and perhaps Guyana and Belize could move to independence and run a path independent of Canada with their own successes and failures. I personally doubt the demographic clout of the other islands even together to push away from Canadian dominance, with many of the Little 8 (9) having popular support of union with Canada. Unfortunately I'm biased as a Trini taking into regard the rest of the Caribbean's perspective.

The other obvious parallels are PNG and Australia; I have a hard time seeing Canadian domestic politics being anywhere close to a point in terms of acceptance of confederation of the generally poor and mostly "non-white" BWI with the generally rich (in comparison, certainly) and mostly "white" Dominion.

Again, Newfoundland's history, both economic and political, seems illustrative.

And Newfoundland at least was contiguous to the Dominion, and after 1945, there are obvious strategic issues, none of which are ever in play in terms of the BWI for Canada, in the teens or any other time.

Best,
 
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Given that the people of the West Indies see us as colonial overlords who used to own everything, it'd be a tough sell. It was in the real world when they proposed it so, yeah, this is the sort of ASB that isn't the Affiliated States of Boreoamerica.
 
Interesting idea. Was such a thing plausible?

No, it's not, why ? Structuring.
From the east to the west, your facing, without knowing, just about 2,500 fédérations of natives that have quite different theological approches. The main Constitution is iroquoian and, of a model similar to the europeans, from wich they are issued in the east and , of asians, mainly from the remnant of mongols invasion in Birmania, arriving in the west. Picture it: keltics, norvegians, french, anglo, asians and italians (by proxy) for the main parts.

The europeans, same bunch as before, in a more modern fashion, want the dow but in the wrong direction. Catherine sees the opportunity and, in lieu of listening to the explorators, listen to the observers that she forces the explorators to bring with them. Those guys observed and studied the habits of the locals and the cycles of nature of the area. The locals have good habits, peaceful and great in socials, ready to give everything they owned to others, confidants in higher values (not christians). That's how they became russians!
The elisabethans, those islanders, with a great armada, never tought to do anything of substance with that wilderness, but curiously declared the natives
personnal subjects of the queen, wich was sounded in a matriarcal society. The future will celebrate those words.
The asians might realise in the future what they miss by not following the birmanians.
The french are still playing with their feathers, while the natives put them on their head, symbol of personnal value.
The south of the continent is still freeking but hasardous, comes threw the Mississipi for some incursions and leave as fast as they can, not at ease so far away, with those faces in wood observing them.
Today, the map is such, that there in no borders in northern america and the south is still battling his fanstasm to offer to gods thoses bodies more useful
for developpment.

Plausible? Of course not ! Gerard
 
No, it's not, why ? Structuring.
From the east to the west, your facing, without knowing, just about 2,500 fédérations of natives that have quite different theological approches. The main Constitution is iroquoian and, of a model similar to the europeans, from wich they are issued in the east and , of asians, mainly from the remnant of mongols invasion in Birmania, arriving in the west. Picture it: keltics, norvegians, french, anglo, asians and italians (by proxy) for the main parts.

The europeans, same bunch as before, in a more modern fashion, want the dow but in the wrong direction. Catherine sees the opportunity and, in lieu of listening to the explorators, listen to the observers that she forces the explorators to bring with them. Those guys observed and studied the habits of the locals and the cycles of nature of the area. The locals have good habits, peaceful and great in socials, ready to give everything they owned to others, confidants in higher values (not christians). That's how they became russians!
The elisabethans, those islanders, with a great armada, never tought to do anything of substance with that wilderness, but curiously declared the natives
personnal subjects of the queen, wich was sounded in a matriarcal society. The future will celebrate those words.
The asians might realise in the future what they miss by not following the birmanians.
The french are still playing with their feathers, while the natives put them on their head, symbol of personnal value.
The south of the continent is still freeking but hasardous, comes threw the Mississipi for some incursions and leave as fast as they can, not at ease so far away, with those faces in wood observing them.
Today, the map is such, that there in no borders in northern america and the south is still battling his fanstasm to offer to gods thoses bodies more useful
for developpment.

Plausible? Of course not ! Gerard

I hnow, but so close it overlap !~ Gerard.
 
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