WI: A Yorkist Son for Charles, duke of Burgundy

Alright, so let's assume that Charles, duke of Burgundy and third wife, Margaret of York, manage to have one child, a son in 1470/1471 (Charles? Philippe?); half-sister, Marie still marries Maximilian of Austria (although possibly earlier) simply just to keep butterflies to a minimum. Charles still dies in battle, I feel that it's more a case of "when" not "if" , leaving an underage heir. Margaret is regent, the queen of the Romans is the new duke's sister/heiress presumptive. How do things fare for the young duke? How does France react?

PS: I'm guessing that there's no royal crown involved here, since Friedrich III would be much-more opposed to granting it to Charles, what with a semblance of the grant being more permanent - rather than temporarily granting it to Charles whose only heir was his daughter, married to Friedrich's son.
 
Well on one hand the French don't have an excuse to try and dismember the Burgundian domains, on the other hand the agglomeration of lands was fairly unstable and required able rule to hold together. Something a child probably couldn't provide in the short-term. However, if Margaret of York can hold things together once he's an adult he has the richest per capita realm in northern Europe and a strong claim to the English throne. If he can acquire England the resulting realm would be intimidating to say the very least.
 
It would be a battle of influence, The Holy Roman Empire and the kingdom of french will fight by the way of the Burgundians councellor to have Burgundy in their side.

In the same time, the power of the Burgundian estate will start to desingrate, and the country will became mless and less centralized, I expect many war in the few years in the purpose to hold his territories together.

We will see the emergence of bloc, if The holy Roman Empire and Burgundy will became allies In the same time in reaction France, Savoy and Swiss became allies. With less power Maximillian coulnd't block the Hungary, and without his ressource he couldn't centralize the State, Austria will still became powerfull but really less that OTL. The other states of the HRE worried about this encirclement could allies with France in the case of war and the Brgundian Estate would surely refuse to fund the war against France. Swiss and Savoy will not be the most trustworthy allies, and could quickly abandon the war.

So both power would search for other allies as England for the HRE (in the same time France will try to place a pro-french king). Spain will be a wild card, if they tries to conquer Napoli and succeded, the north Italian state could surely ally with France, to protect their integrity. We will risk seeing a more dynamic france interm of centralism and millitary reform. Hungary could also allies with France if they didn't get a pro-Habsburg king.

Of course being more complex than this, it will not be always the same powers in the war and we will not see the same contributor each time. But in fonction of the kind of war and the number of allies a side would win or another.

but i'm not sure that Burgundy could survive, their estates have a lot of love for liberty, the loyalty for other entities (as France or the Holy Roman Empire) nasty foreign influence, separatism, .... a partition is likely to happen later.
 
Last edited:
Well with a son for Charles and Margaret I instead can easily see Mary marrying Maximilian with a very big dowry as one of the condition from HRE Friedrich III for conceding to Charles the title of King of either Burgundy or Lotharingia (in exchange of other money naturally, much like the OTL wedding of Maximilian to Bianca Maria Sforza)... Friedrich needed a lot of money and Charles has plenty of it and with a son his desire for a crown will became only bigger... I can see a surviving house of Burgundy for many years with Charles's son marrying: a daughter of Maximilian and Mary, Anne of Brittany, one of his english cousins (if the house of York survive), an ATL heiress of Lorraine or Juana/Maria of Spain. If France go like OTL with the extintion of the Valois, Orleans and Angloume branches included then Charles' descentants will become also Kings of France
 
I'm confused. Why is everyone making as though a regency would be a terrible thing. Yes, the Burgundian territories were a fractious lot, but Margaret was sorta de facto regent after Marie died anyway and didn't do too badly.

I didn't say it would be easy, but Marge was a shrewd operator who didn't get the nickname of the "Diabolical Duchess" for nothing. My favourite story about her is that when she heard the rumours the French were putting about that Philippe le Bel was born female (at his christening) she promptly stripped him down and held him up to the crowd to prove he was male. The rumours stopped after that. Even the French seem to have been aware that she was a dangerous opponent.
I could see (as per my TL) that she would continue the centralizing policy of her late husband albeit by different methods.

@isabella, I was going for either Isabel/Juana of Aragon or a York girl in my TL. I'd prefer to keep things like avuncular marriages as the exception rather than a rule. Although to the point of Burgundian lords becoming kings of France, lets first look at the boys lifetime (d. ~1510)

@Thoresby. I read once that this could have had a massive effect on England's politics, since by the birth of a son to Charles, Elizabeth of York would stay betrothed to the dauphin (most likely even marrying him) which would make Richard III's usurpation unlikely and/or Henry Tudor's sponsorship by France even less so.
 
Well with a son for Charles and Margaret I instead can easily see Mary marrying Maximilian with a very big dowry as one of the condition from HRE Friedrich III for conceding to Charles the title of King of either Burgundy or Lotharingia (in exchange of other money naturally, much like the OTL wedding of Maximilian to Bianca Maria Sforza)... Friedrich needed a lot of money and Charles has plenty of it and with a son his desire for a crown will became only bigger... I can see a surviving house of Burgundy for many years with Charles's son marrying: a daughter of Maximilian and Mary, Anne of Brittany, one of his english cousins (if the house of York survive), an ATL heiress of Lorraine or Juana/Maria of Spain. If France go like OTL with the extintion of the Valois, Orleans and Angloume branches included then Charles' descentants will become also Kings of France

He didn't accept OTL, why he would accept, Frederick is affraid of Charles le Téméraire ambition, by allowing a title of king, he know that he would go for the title of Holy Roman Emperor just after and with a son, it would be worse, Frederick would be affraid of a new Charles. (and Savoy, Swiss and other states would not let Charles become a king, they would allies with Louis Xi in the first second they see the treaty)

m confused. Why is everyone making as though a regency would be a terrible thing. Yes, the Burgundian territories were a fractious lot, but Margaret was sorta de facto regent after Marie died anyway and didn't do too badly.

I didn't say it would be easy, but Marge was a shrewd operator who didn't get the nickname of the "Diabolical Duchess" for nothing. My favourite story about her is that when she heard the rumours the French were putting about that Philippe le Bel was born female (at his christening) she promptly stripped him down and held him up to the crowd to prove he was male. The rumours stopped after that. Even the French seem to have been aware that she was a dangerous opponent.
I could see (as per my TL) that she would continue the centralizing policy of her late husband albeit by different methods.

Because she didn't have any authority and respect, when estate learn the death of Charles the Téméraire their first most was to imprison her and Mary to sign them concession without french threat , they will ask for more and more autonomy Margaret couldn't accept it and would ask for an foreign intervention (surely English) and would try something that would backfired her. It's for that I would say that war will happen.
 
Last edited:
I'm confused. Why is everyone making as though a regency would be a terrible thing. Yes, the Burgundian territories were a fractious lot, but Margaret was sorta de facto regent after Marie died anyway and didn't do too badly.

I didn't say it would be easy, but Marge was a shrewd operator who didn't get the nickname of the "Diabolical Duchess" for nothing. My favourite story about her is that when she heard the rumours the French were putting about that Philippe le Bel was born female (at his christening) she promptly stripped him down and held him up to the crowd to prove he was male. The rumours stopped after that. Even the French seem to have been aware that she was a dangerous opponent.
I could see (as per my TL) that she would continue the centralizing policy of her late husband albeit by different methods.

@isabella, I was going for either Isabel/Juana of Aragon or a York girl in my TL. I'd prefer to keep things like avuncular marriages as the exception rather than a rule. Although to the point of Burgundian lords becoming kings of France, lets first look at the boys lifetime (d. ~1510)

@Thoresby. I read once that this could have had a massive effect on England's politics, since by the birth of a son to Charles, Elizabeth of York would stay betrothed to the dauphin (most likely even marrying him) which would make Richard III's usurpation unlikely and/or Henry Tudor's sponsorship by France even less so.
Isabel is out of discussion as she was always destined to Portugal so Juana (while Maria has good chances to become Maximilian's daughter-in-law)...

Without the early death of Mary, Duchess of Burgundy the only real danger for the wedding of Elizabeth of York and the Dauphin will be the death of Francis Phoebus of Navarre who left his sister Catherine, first cousin of said Dauphin as Queen of Navarre...
And really Anne of York is almost as closely related to ATL Philip of Burgundy as ATL Eleanor of Austria is (Anne is his first cousin, Eleanor the daughter of his half-sister).
I think any of that girls would work: Anne of York, Juana of Spain, Anne of Brittany (if Edward V marry elsewhere) or maybe an ATL daughter of Nicholas of Anjou and Anne of France. Eleanor of Austria (ATL Margaret here named for Maximilian's mother) will be likely married to either Juan of Spain, the ATL Dauphin of France or Edward V of England if Anne of Brittany marry someone else.
 
Because she didn't have any authority and respect, when estate learn the death of Charles the Téméraire their first most was to imprison her and Mary to sign them concession without french threat , they will ask for more and more autonomy Margaret couldn't accept it and would ask for an foreign intervention (surely English) and would try something that would backfired her. It's for that I would say that war will happen.

I'm not saying it's gonna be overnight, but as the mother to the new duke, rather than simply the consort of the late duke, Margaret's in a very different position here. IMO even that the first thing they did was to imprison her suggests they were scared of how she might influence Marie. She might not have had authority/respect, but she was certainly a force to be reckoned with (judging by their reaction).

Isabel is out of discussion as she was always destined to Portugal so Juana (while Maria has good chances to become Maximilian's daughter-in-law)...

Without the early death of Mary, Duchess of Burgundy the only real danger for the wedding of Elizabeth of York and the Dauphin will be the death of Francis Phoebus of Navarre who left his sister Catherine, first cousin of said Dauphin as Queen of Navarre...
And really Anne of York is almost as closely related to ATL Philip of Burgundy as ATL Eleanor of Austria is (Anne is his first cousin, Eleanor the daughter of his half-sister).
I think any of that girls would work: Anne of York, Juana of Spain, Anne of Brittany (if Edward V marry elsewhere) or maybe an ATL daughter of Nicholas of Anjou and Anne of France. Eleanor of Austria (ATL Margaret here named for Maximilian's mother) will be likely married to either Juan of Spain, the ATL Dauphin of France or Edward V of England if Anne of Brittany marry someone else.

Well, for my TL, I've got Joao's wife (Leonor of Viseu) die before they have kids, Joao remarries to La Beltraneja instead of his dad, but the marriage is annulled by the pope. Joao then winds up married to Elizabeth of York (the rumours of Edward IV's bigamy started floating around before Clarence dies, and the French don't want a bastard for a queen. Ergo, Isabel is free - since Joao-Elizabeth's kids are gonna be more of an age with Juana/Maria. But OTL, I'm guessing Juana would probably be a nice option - Fernando will want Burgundy to sign onto his squash France league.
 
I'm not saying it's gonna be overnight, but as the mother to the new duke, rather than simply the consort of the late duke, Margaret's in a very different position here. IMO even that the first thing they did was to imprison her suggests they were scared of how she might influence Marie. She might not have had authority/respect, but she was certainly a force to be reckoned with (judging by their reaction).



Well, for my TL, I've got Joao's wife (Leonor of Viseu) die before they have kids, Joao remarries to La Beltraneja instead of his dad, but the marriage is annulled by the pope. Joao then winds up married to Elizabeth of York (the rumours of Edward IV's bigamy started floating around before Clarence dies, and the French don't want a bastard for a queen. Ergo, Isabel is free - since Joao-Elizabeth's kids are gonna be more of an age with Juana/Maria. But OTL, I'm guessing Juana would probably be a nice option - Fernando will want Burgundy to sign onto his squash France league.
Portugal would still want Isabel and not Juana or Maria while Ferdinand and Isabella are bound by the treaty to give their eldest daughter as bride for the first man in the direct line for the crown of Portugal available (Alfonso was four year and half younger than Isabella) and the contract had a clause for which Isabella if widowed without children was to marry the next heir of Portugal
 
Portugal would still want Isabel and not Juana or Maria while Ferdinand and Isabella are bound by the treaty to give their eldest daughter as bride for the first man in the direct line for the crown of Portugal available (Alfonso was four year and half younger than Isabella) and the contract had a clause for which Isabella if widowed without children was to marry the next heir of Portugal

Well, in my TL Joao-Liz's eldest son is nearly a decade younger, plus the war ended with the same result (isabellino victory) just a different treaty, plus they deprived Joao of a legal wife (La Beltraneja) who had already given him an heir (who was then bastardized because the marriage of his parents' was invalidated, and the pro-Spanish pope sides with Fernando and Isabella). But I hear what you're saying. Juana makes the most sense then if Isabel were unavailable.

I was also toying with the idea of a way of bringing Guelders into the Burgundian fold by wedding the young duke to Philippa of Guelders (and then letting her brother die young)? But beyond marriages, I was also wondering what sort of impact the existence of this boy is going to have when Louis XI dies? Obviously, Orléans is the most senior prince of the blood, but would the duke side with Anne of Beaujeu? Or against her, for instance? Or would Margaret just tell him to mind his own business and stay out of French affairs? (Don't say he'll listen - he'd be a teenage boy, and how often do they listen to their moms (I know I didn't always).
 
I believe Guelders was already in Burgundian control by then, so Anne of Britanny would be a more logical choice. The choice of Anne's bride by Breton lords was meant to get an ally to maintain Britanny's independence and in this matter, Charles' son may have been a more relevant choice, owing to Burgundy and Britanny mutual interests, Britanny keeping its independence through the strength of Burgundian military strength and Burgundy gaining a strategical spot at the Channel's entrance. It's even more important if Charles' son actually succeeds in reclaiming the English throne from Henry VII and the Tudors (I mind Richard III could possibly make him heir instead of de la Pole for similar strategical motives).

All in all, there are the strategical ingredients to spark another round of the Hundred Years War.
At worst, for France, you have Valois-Burgundy controlling large swathes of lands to the east, north and west. Contrasting with England in the last stages of the war, Burgundy still has a sizeable foothold in continental France proper and more financial and human resources to support the war. Given that the last time England and Burgundy were allied was the worst time of the whole war for the Valois, such a perspective could be frightening, especially if Charles' son is as ambitious as his father.
 
I believe Guelders was already in Burgundian control by then, so Anne of Britanny would be a more logical choice. The choice of Anne's bride by Breton lords was meant to get an ally to maintain Britanny's independence and in this matter, Charles' son may have been a more relevant choice, owing to Burgundy and Britanny mutual interests, Britanny keeping its independence through the strength of Burgundian military strength and Burgundy gaining a strategical spot at the Channel's entrance. It's even more important if Charles' son actually succeeds in reclaiming the English throne from Henry VII and the Tudors (I mind Richard III could possibly make him heir instead of de la Pole for similar strategical motives).

All in all, there are the strategical ingredients to spark another round of the Hundred Years War.
At worst, for France, you have Valois-Burgundy controlling large swathes of lands to the east, north and west. Contrasting with England in the last stages of the war, Burgundy still has a sizeable foothold in continental France proper and more financial and human resources to support the war. Given that the last time England and Burgundy were allied was the worst time of the whole war for the Valois, such a perspective could be frightening, especially if Charles' son is as ambitious as his father.

Anne could certainly make for an interesting bride, but I have the unfortunate idea that the English would have the opinion of "hands off, nephew" regarding her. Especially if Richard III doesn't pull his OTL stunt.

Agreed with the second part about a revival of the 100YW. Although, would it be a restart? AFAIK, Henry VIII did a couple of forays into French territory with the goal of asserting his claim (not to mention Edward IV's brief war that ended in the Treaty of Picquigny), but none were ever considered a continuance of the 100YW, but rather wars in their own right, weren't they?
 
Anne could certainly make for an interesting bride, but I have the unfortunate idea that the English would have the opinion of "hands off, nephew" regarding her. Especially if Richard III doesn't pull his OTL stunt.

Agreed with the second part about a revival of the 100YW. Although, would it be a restart? AFAIK, Henry VIII did a couple of forays into French territory with the goal of asserting his claim (not to mention Edward IV's brief war that ended in the Treaty of Picquigny), but none were ever considered a continuance of the 100YW, but rather wars in their own right, weren't they?

They were not even if historian think that it was attempt could have lead to a continuance of the 100YW, it's for that IMO France would never accept this wedding and it would lead to wars.

I believe Guelders was already in Burgundian control by then, so Anne of Britanny would be a more logical choice. The choice of Anne's bride by Breton lords was meant to get an ally to maintain Britanny's independence and in this matter, Charles' son may have been a more relevant choice, owing to Burgundy and Britanny mutual interests, Britanny keeping its independence through the strength of Burgundian military strength and Burgundy gaining a strategical spot at the Channel's entrance. It's even more important if Charles' son actually succeeds in reclaiming the English throne from Henry VII and the Tudors (I mind Richard III could possibly make him heir instead of de la Pole for similar strategical motives).

All in all, there are the strategical ingredients to spark another round of the Hundred Years War.
At worst, for France, you have Valois-Burgundy controlling large swathes of lands to the east, north and west. Contrasting with England in the last stages of the war, Burgundy still has a sizeable foothold in continental France proper and more financial and human resources to support the war. Given that the last time England and Burgundy were allied was the worst time of the whole war for the Valois, such a perspective could be frightening, especially if Charles' son is as ambitious as his father.

Guelders was part of Burgundy, the duke of Burgundy took control of these land directly after having imprisoend their dukes, Francis II would gladly accept this union, but it would lead to a resurgence of the Anti-Burgundian front,(Savoy, Lorraine, Swiss, France, ...) and if his son is ambitious as his father he would surely get the same sort.
 
Anne could certainly make for an interesting bride, but I have the unfortunate idea that the English would have the opinion of "hands off, nephew" regarding her. Especially if Richard III doesn't pull his OTL stunt.
Well, we were only speaking of Charles having a son to Margaret of York, not Richard III surviving. If Richard III still goes the same way, this nephew would be of all the most credible successor with the resources of his Burgundian realm, also minding that in the same time, Burgundy would be the strongest ally Richard III could make on the continent, so that's kinda killing two birds with one stone

They were not even if historian think that it was attempt could have lead to a continuance of the 100YW, it's for that IMO France would never accept this wedding and it would lead to wars.
Given the HYW term was more or less an historical construction for a series of wars and truce periods, seeing that latest conflict being put in continuity of the dynastic struggle between England and France with the same old players back again into the field would not be a difficult thing, though there may be need for another name if he gets too close to 200 years.
Guelders was part of Burgundy, the duke of Burgundy took control of these land directly after having imprisoend their dukes, Francis II would gladly accept this union, but it would lead to a resurgence of the Anti-Burgundian front,(Savoy, Lorraine, Swiss, France, ...) and if his son is ambitious as his father he would surely get the same sort.
Which didn't prevent Duke Charles from doing what he did. Plus, in a tentative outline, Charles' son would possibly get the English throne a couple years after Richard III's death, just before an actual marriage.
The marriage would certainly trigger a war, but Burgundy would be in a stronger position with England's forces than Charles the Bold was in his time.
 
Which didn't prevent Duke Charles from doing what he did. Plus, in a tentative outline, Charles' son would possibly get the English throne a couple years after Richard III's death, just before an actual marriage.
The marriage would certainly trigger a war, but Burgundy would be in a stronger position with England's forces than Charles the Bold was in his time.

Yeah if the heir didn't act as Charles le Téméraire. This last one raised taxes (making the estate angry) and his behavior put in place a coalition
 
Last edited:
Top