WI: A very quick Greek defeat at Thermopylae

The battle of Thermopylae is traditionally stated to have lasted at least a couple of days. Let's say that the Persians, unbeknownst to the Greeks already had knowledge of the goat path. The Persians surround and slaughter the Greeks within a day's time with minimal losses relative to OTL. What effect, if any does this have on Xerxes' invasion, along with the modern image of the Spartan last stand at Thermopylae. This scenario involves all 7,000 or so Greeks getting surrounded and slaughtered/captured.
 
Than the battle of Thermopylae in 480 BCE would be as forgettable in popular culture as the other countless battles of Thermopylae in the following years, like the ones fought by Philip II in the third sacred war.
 
if the rest of the war went the same way, i would think the Greeks would still glamorize the battle. 7000 Greeks stood their ground against millions of Persians, still makes a good story.
 
Depends on how you get that defeat. I imagine the main Spartan forces are going to blame the... less dedicated to resistance allied auxileries for letting the Persians get the drop on them, and the Athenians are going to get the reputation as the heros of Hellas. There's also the possability of the "Stand at Corinth" faction getting more support if the Athenians feel they don't have time, or more City-States throwing themselves on the mercy of the King of Kings

Whatever the case, logistics are still going to hamper the Persian conquest ability if they can't find more local clients and still lose at sea.
 
The battle on the grand scheme thing didn’t matter at all didn’t stop the Persian advances only by a couple days they still burned Athens it could have even been completely forgotten
 
if the rest of the war went the same way, i would think the Greeks would still glamorize the battle. 7000 Greeks stood their ground against millions of Persians, still makes a good story.

There's not much to glamorize though. They just get surrounded and killed. In the original battle the Greeks were able to throw off every wave of Persians until they were betrayed. I disagree with sertorius that it would be forgotten. I think it would be remembered almost like the Fall of Singapore during WW2: a complete tactical disaster. Instead of a glorious last stand, we may have a cautionary tale.
 
if the rest of the war went the same way, i would think the Greeks would still glamorize the battle. 7000 Greeks stood their ground against millions of Persians, still makes a good story.

But there weren’t actually a million Persians, that’s just Herodotus spinning a yarn. Modern estimates based on Pausanius’ writings as well as the official Persian retelling, logistical capabilities, March times and etc. put the number somewhere between 100,000 and 250,000, with at least a fifth of those men being held in Macedon and the Thessalian plains as an occupation force.

Still a massive amount mind you compared to the approx. 7000 Greeks but nowhere near Zack Snyder’s little fan fiction.
 
Last edited:

Hecatee

Donor
Should the whole Greek force be beaten in a day at Thermopylae then you'd have a number of consequences :

- 7000 men lacking for alt-Platea
- No battle of the Artemision and possibly the Persian fleet not suffering as much damages in the storm, meaning a stronger Persian fleet at Salamis, so maybe no Alt-Platea...
 
Should the whole Greek force be beaten in a day at Thermopylae then you'd have a number of consequences :

- 7000 men lacking for alt-Platea
- No battle of the Artemision and possibly the Persian fleet not suffering as much damages in the storm, meaning a stronger Persian fleet at Salamis, so maybe no Alt-Platea...

Why would Artemisium not happen? Themistocles planned the naval defense before the Greeks marched for Thermopylae.
 
Should the whole Greek force be beaten in a day at Thermopylae then you'd have a number of consequences :

- 7000 men lacking for alt-Platea
- No battle of the Artemision and possibly the Persian fleet not suffering as much damages in the storm, meaning a stronger Persian fleet at Salamis, so maybe no Alt-Platea...
well not all of them fled some stayed with the Spartans and most would have died from other causes and they never really got back they got killed in Thebes or somewhere else and why would th were be no artemision
 

Hecatee

Donor
Why would Artemisium not happen? Themistocles planned the naval defense before the Greeks marched for Thermopylae.
Artemisium was part of a combined operation with land and sea supporting each other : in case of rapid destruction of the land force the Greeks could retreat their fleet because they would not have safe harbors with the coast in the hands of the Persians
 
Artemisium was part of a combined operation with land and sea supporting each other : in case of rapid destruction of the land force the Greeks could retreat their fleet because they would not have safe harbors with the coast in the hands of the Persians

The Greeks still had Euboea.
 
Artemisium was part of a combined operation with land and sea supporting each other : in case of rapid destruction of the land force the Greeks could retreat their fleet because they would not have safe harbors with the coast in the hands of the Persians
umm yes they still be able to on land and on island and also we are talking about at the most a 3 day difference not enough to destroy a battle operation like that.
 
well not all of them fled some stayed with the Spartans and most would have died from other causes and they never really got back they got killed in Thebes or somewhere else and why would th were be no artemision
Also, it didn't actually matter for the battle of Plataea, since most Greek and Persian contingents didn't actually fight in the decisive phase of the battle; the Persians, thinking the Greeks were retreating, rushed out of their camp, and only the Athenians and Spartans fought the Thebans and Persians.
 
Also, it didn't actually matter for the battle of Plataea, since most Greek and Persian contingents didn't actually fight in the decisive phase of the battle; the Persians, thinking the Greeks were retreating, rushed out of their camp, and only the Athenians and Spartans fought the Thebans and Persians.

The Plateans and Thespians would beg to differ. Also there probably were contingents of Thessalians and Locrians in the Persian army.
 
But there weren’t actually a million Persians, that’s just Herodotus spinning a yarn. Modern estimates based on Pausanius’ writings as well as the official Persian retelling, logistical capabilities, March times and etc. put the number somewhere between 100,000 and 250,000, with at least a fifth of those men being held in Macedon and the Thessalian plains as an occupation force.

Still a massive amount mind you compared to the approx. 7000 Greeks but nowhere near Zack Snyder’s little fan fiction.

my point is not about modern historians, but about the greeks glamouring the events. everyone is well aware that the actually numbers would have been significantly lower.
 
my point is not about modern historians, but about the greeks glamouring the events. everyone is well aware that the actually numbers would have been significantly lower.

If the Spartans had been overwhelmed right away, there would have been little to glamorize. Greeks didn’t really glamorize Arthemisium after all.
 
If the Spartans had been overwhelmed right away, there would have been little to glamorize. Greeks didn’t really glamorize Arthemisium after all.
The Spartans did propagate the story that Leonidas had been a deliberate sacrifice, having received an oracle that said one Spartan king would die to ensure the freedom of Greece. Obviously baloney, but the story was enhanced somewhat by the fact that the Spartans had chosen to stay behind when the others retreated; without that element, it might have been an even harder sell that Thermopylae was a willing sacrifice to show Sparta was willing to walk the walk.
 
The Spartans did propagate the story that Leonidas had been a deliberate sacrifice, having received an oracle that said one Spartan king would die to ensure the freedom of Greece. Obviously baloney, but the story was enhanced somewhat by the fact that the Spartans had chosen to stay behind when the others retreated; without that element, it might have been an even harder sell that Thermopylae was a willing sacrifice to show Sparta was willing to walk the walk.

Could have sworn that it was foretold by a floating oracle, and inbred priests who looked like monsters.

 
Top