WI: A surviving Vinland colony

[ATL Czar]

Inspired by a previous thread I made, if the Norse colony of Vinland managed to survive in some form, what would the resulting consequences be?
What effect would a Norse American colony have on Europe, being in semi-regular contact with Scandinavia, and the occasional trader?
Would Vinland's existence lead to an early Age of Discovery?
Would it eventually grow into a major superpower of the time?

Also, whereabouts in North America would it expand into, and what territory would it cover?

 

[Umbral]

The answer to many of these questions hinges on: What caused it to survive ITTL? OTL, it just didn't have the numbers. Something most have gone differently.

 

[ATL Czar]

The answer to many of these questions hinges on: What caused it to survive ITTL? OTL, it just didn't have the numbers. Something most have gone differently.

Well, in this case, I'd say that on first meeting, the Norse don't just kill the natives on first sight and are instead curious, leading to lukewarm relations and trading. The fact that the Vinlanders had to deal with hostile natives was one of the main reasons for its failure, also. News of Vinland soon gets out to Greenland, Iceland, and eventually Scandinavia and the rest of Europe, drawing in the occasional settler.

 

[Winnabago]

Well, according to the sagas, their relations with the skraelings were initially trade-oriented and friendly: the Saga of Eric the Red describes how they traded red cloth to the locals in exchange for furs and "skins of grey" (which I guess is sealskin). The colonists could exchange tiny amounts of cloth for large amounts of furs, an awesome business model.

But then a bull randomly jumped out and freaked out the skraelings, who had probably never seen a cow in their lives, let alone an angry male one. Presumably thinking they had fallen in some Viking trap and feeling their xenophobia fully confirmed, the skraelings fled and came back heavily armed, leading to all the warfare and such.

You can probably butterfly away the cow, I guess.

 

[ATL Czar]

Well, according to the sagas, their relations with the skraelings were initially trade-oriented and friendly: the Saga of Eric the Red describes how they traded red cloth to the locals in exchange for furs and "skins of grey" (which I guess is sealskin). The colonists could exchange tiny amounts of cloth for large amounts of furs, an awesome business model.

But then a bull randomly jumped out and freaked out the skraelings, who had probably never seen a cow in their lives, let alone an angry male one. Presumably thinking they had fallen in some Viking trap and feeling their xenophobia fully confirmed, the skraelings fled and came back heavily armed, leading to all the warfare and such.

You can probably butterfly away the cow, I guess.

Oh, well I was going it from the Saga of the Greenlanders but actually, I prefer your POD, it's more precise and a lot easier to butterfly. I'll go with yours.

 

[Will Kürlich Kerl]

Inspired by a previous thread I made, if the Norse colony of Vinland managed to survive in some form, what would the resulting consequences be?
What effect would a Norse American colony have on Europe, being in semi-regular contact with Scandinavia, and the occasional trader?
Would Vinland's existence lead to an early Age of Discovery?
Would it eventually grow into a major superpower of the time?

Also, whereabouts in North America would it expand into, and what territory would it cover?

There are a number of timelines on a surviving Vinland colony on this website.

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=234574
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=258561

and a lengthy discussion right here:
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=266199

 

[Umbral]

You'll need a draw. If you get an initial settlement going I can see the Greenlanders following in dribs and drabs, but to get people from further away, it needs something that they can't get much easier in Russia.

Conflict with the natives willprobably happen eventally, but if the Norse are established, the odds are in their favor.

 

[Winnabago]

Oh, um, on results:
My personal theory as to why the Vikings didn't bring European diseases with them: the trip from Greenland/Iceland was so long that anyone with smallpox died along the way. So diseases are doubtful to me until technology kicks up.

But the natives would produce massive amounts of furs for the Vikings in exchange for European goods like bronze, iron, cloth, and trinkets. I imagine strong Viking settlement around the mouth of the St. Lawrence, a river increasingly filled with fur-bearing canoes.

Colonist armies would consist of native allies with a strong Viking core, which would launch raids on agricultural states further south, perhaps semi-allying the Iroquois against the Algonquin speakers, with pirate coves along the Eastern seaboard stretching down to Manahattan Island or maybe even the Chesapeake Bay.

Longships would trounce war canoes easily, even when staffed with Indians. Maybe Vikings would travel out and declare themselves kings of foreign tribes, or simply become powerful long-distance traders like they were in Russia.

 

[The Kiat]

Well, in this case, I'd say that on first meeting, the Norse don't just kill the natives on first sight and are instead curious, leading to lukewarm relations and trading. The fact that the Vinlanders had to deal with hostile natives was one of the main reasons for its failure, also. News of Vinland soon gets out to Greenland, Iceland, and eventually Scandinavia and the rest of Europe, drawing in the occasional settler.

Vikings not greeting a people with their axes? Now that's ASB territory. I also recall some non-hostile contact that resulted in trading. Unfortunately one of the gifts for the natives was a milk product. Being lactose intolerant, the Indians assumed the Vikings were trying to poison them..

 

[ATL Czar]

There are a number of timelines on a surviving Vinland colony on this website.

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=234574
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=258561

and a lengthy discussion right here:
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=266199

Like I said, inspired by a previous thread I made discussing Vinland. The last one in the list, in fact.

 

[ATL Czar]

No-one else have any ideas?

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

My current TL has Vinland as a colony, but the Norse don't colonize it. The Swedes do it instead. Putting that aside, can either Denmark-Norway or Sweden revive the concept of "Vinland" as a Scandinavian colony and colonize parts of North America?

 

[Umbral]

Vikings not greeting a people with their axes? Now that's ASB territory.

The Vikings were perfectly capable of getting along with people who could apply force back at them. The problem came when they were a people in Dark Ages europe with sufficent ship tech advantage that they could hit people who could not strike back at them.

Oh, um, on results:
My personal theory as to why the Vikings didn't bring European diseases with them: the trip from Greenland/Iceland was so long that anyone with smallpox died along the way. So diseases are doubtful to me until technology kicks up.

That only works for some diseases though. Not smallpox, I don't think. You're going to have diseases enough. Not quite as hard as the conquistadors brought them...no pigs for a while, and the Vikings were more hygienic-minded.

But the natives would produce massive amounts of furs for the Vikings in exchange for European goods like bronze, iron, cloth, and trinkets. I imagine strong Viking settlement around the mouth of the St. Lawrence, a river increasingly filled with fur-bearing canoes.

The natives would want what the Vikings had to offer, but Russia also had piles of fur, and was a lot closer and easier to get to. Its not going to draw any numbers.

Colonist armies would consist of native allies with a strong Viking core, which would launch raids on agricultural states further south, perhaps semi-allying the Iroquois against the Algonquin speakers, with pirate coves along the Eastern seaboard stretching down to Manahattan Island or maybe even the Chesapeake Bay.

Longships would trounce war canoes easily, even when staffed with Indians. Maybe Vikings would travel out and declare themselves kings of foreign tribes, or simply become powerful long-distance traders like they were in Russia.

If you get any significant movement of peoples, I expect all of those things would go on.

 

[Sian]

If contact with the Greenlander colony is maintained say, by somehow changing their foodsources to something that doesn't collapse with the small ice age in the middle ages (say much more oceanbased instead of attempts at animal husbandry and farming, learning to hunt seals from the native Dorset Culture or perhaps inventing whaling or gainng the knowhow from the Thule Culture when they meet in 12xx), then you might have a great springboard for Denmark-Norway to move at the northwestern reaches making a good grab at everything northeast of a line between Hudson bay and Nova Scotia, perhaps even more, due to their ability to have trading/resupply posts on Faroes, Iceland and Greenland

But this survival of the Greenlander norse population, would maybe also make the discovery of America in itself happen faster since there'll be consistent rumours about rich lands to the west, from Scandinavian trader-explorers trading Arctic Ivory from Greenland

 

[Winnabago]

That only works for some diseases though. Not smallpox, I don't think. You're going to have diseases enough. Not quite as hard as the conquistadors brought them...no pigs for a while, and the Vikings were more hygienic-minded.

Well, if I was on a boat with a bunch of filthy men and one of them looked a bit smallpoxy, I'd throw that bastard overboard, and I imagine the long-sea-journey-loving Vikings would have figured out how that helps.

Same thing with cows and pigs.

The natives would want what the Vikings had to offer, but Russia also had piles of fur, and was a lot closer and easier to get to. Its not going to draw any numbers.

That logic applies to the French Canadian fur trade as well, yet such trade prospered mightily.

I suppose the leading theory ought to be that America would turn into something analagous to Russia, consisting of a number of native-influenced principalities.

 

[Faeelin]

That logic applies to the French Canadian fur trade as well, yet such trade prospered mightily.

Actually, by the time the New French trade took off, Russia was running out of furs. The Russians pursued animals east to the Pacific, after all.

 

[Dahveed323]

Oh, well I was going it from the Saga of the Greenlanders but actually, I prefer your POD, it's more precise and a lot easier to butterfly. I'll go with yours.

Simply have the vikings put down the bull in view of the natives. Not only does this quell their sense of any shenanigans on the part of the vikings, but might give them some level of referential awe.

 

[katchen]

And of course hold a big feast with the bull's meat to which the natives are invited. to partake.

 

[jackalope]

Oh, um, on results:
My personal theory as to why the Vikings didn't bring European diseases with them: the trip from Greenland/Iceland was so long that anyone with smallpox died along the way. So diseases are doubtful to me until technology kicks up.

I largely agree. Of course there are many diseases, each with their own varied strains and pathology. Smallpox regularly hit hardest isolated European stations like Colonial America and Iceland.

Certainly large numbers and incubation (when one disease progresses, another is often lying dormant inside the body to kick in when antibodies are weakest to prevent multiplication and transfusion outside the body. Eventually dormant microbes and viruses die naturally or are caught if an event is not activated) play a part. Jamestown had 10,000 or so people in its first five years, most of whom died.

Not an expert in this area, but have not seen much good work in layman terms either. Take what I say with a grain of salt, but look for papers on it.

 

[The Kiat]

The Vikings were perfectly capable of getting along with people who could apply force back at them.

Which is why they will never have friends. It is better to be respected than feared, for if you are feared and you show weakness, all those you have bullied will turn on you. If you're respected, all those who serve you might be willing to help you out in your time of need (or might not).

Yeah, too bad Dark Age Europe didn't have any power projection to invade Scandinavia and crush the Vikings were they lived.