WI: A Surviving Monferrat King of Jerusalem

The two sons of William V, Margrave of Montferrat who travelled to Jerusalem to wed two successive queens (Sibylle and Isabelle) both came to rather unfortunate ends (William died of malaria (although I could swear somewhere foul play was suspected) leaving the field open for Guy de Châtillon; while Conrad was murdered (with the supposed complicity of Richard Coeur de Lion and Henri of Champagne).

So I propose two possible independent PODs to see where this goes:
1) William of Montferrat survives his malarial attack and thus DENIES Guy the chance to get into bed with Sibylle and take a stab at Hierosalemite politics (at least from such a position of influence).
Or
2) Conrad/Corrado manages to escape his attackers (maybe his wife comes home on time that they have dinner together or the bishop of Beauvais hasn't eaten and thus the margrave stays for supper either way avoiding the Hashshashin) or at least they can't get a fatal blow in. And he survives to rule Jerusalem.

What difference would it make to the kingdom's future if Guy never manages to take control or Corrado survives (he was in talks with Saladin when he died, and was a potentially formiddable king cut down in his prime)? IDK if either could SAVE Jerusalem's monarchy but they COULD potentially delay the fall, surely?
 
Depends on how long Conrad lives and whether he has a son. We already have a timeline in which his daughter inherited soon after his death (leading to German involvement in Outremer, two civil wars, a complicated series of events that ended up killing the Hohenstaufen dynasty, and possibly the fall of the Latin Empire).

When he was crowned the time for military operations was probably over in the short term, but its possible he might live to see the Fifth or Sixth Crusade. His father was still leading troops in his late 70s after all. Just by having an adult king on the throne for as long as possible avoids the complications of regency and civil wars Jerusalem went through. If he does he'll need to remarry once Isabella dies.

He might get involved in Thessalonican politics too. Or possibly his influence might help his brother Bontiface be proclaimed Latin Emperor.

Other possible ramifications. Richard might avoid being imprisoned in Germany for Conrad's murder. Or if the assasination still happens but fails things might become very awkward. Latin Emperor Baldwin II will have a different regent. Cyprus may remain outside Jerusalem's influence.
 
Last edited:
The two sons of William V, Margrave of Montferrat who travelled to Jerusalem to wed two successive queens (Sibylle and Isabelle) both came to rather unfortunate ends (William died of malaria (although I could swear somewhere foul play was suspected) leaving the field open for Guy de Châtillon; while Conrad was murdered (with the supposed complicity of Richard Coeur de Lion and Henri of Champagne).

So I propose two possible independent PODs to see where this goes:
1) William of Montferrat survives his malarial attack and thus DENIES Guy the chance to get into bed with Sibylle and take a stab at Hierosalemite politics (at least from such a position of influence).
Or
2) Conrad/Corrado manages to escape his attackers (maybe his wife comes home on time that they have dinner together or the bishop of Beauvais hasn't eaten and thus the margrave stays for supper either way avoiding the Hashshashin) or at least they can't get a fatal blow in. And he survives to rule Jerusalem.

What difference would it make to the kingdom's future if Guy never manages to take control or Corrado survives (he was in talks with Saladin when he died, and was a potentially formiddable king cut down in his prime)? IDK if either could SAVE Jerusalem's monarchy but they COULD potentially delay the fall, surely?
Conrad is too late but with William surviving, well, the chain of events who caused the fall of Jerusalem started with Baldwin's illness and William's death... Take away either and Jerusalem will have a strong and smart leader
 
Conrad is too late but with William surviving, well, the chain of events who caused the fall of Jerusalem started with Baldwin's illness and William's death... Take away either and Jerusalem will have a strong and smart leader

Okay. So more kids for him and Sibylle are a given too? She had more kids with Guy so it's not as though Baudouin V's birth left her unable to have more kids.

What was William's relationship with his in-laws (particularly Baudouin IV) like? Do we know? Also his abilities as a statesman or a general? We wouldn't want William to survive just to be a Guy-lite
 
How long could the kingdom of Jerusalem potentially last if Guilhem/William survives? And I imagine this would butterfly Sibylle's half-sister, Isabelle's remarriage to Corrado, but I'm not sure if she'd still marry Onfroi de Toron, though (was he Chatillon supporter?) That said, an interesting butterfly would be a Montferrat kingdom of Jerusalem - with all its ties to Europe (the Holy Roman Empire, France etc), as well as one which causes Ranier and Maria Porphyrogenita's coup against Dowager Empress Maria of Antioch in Constantinople to be successful (i.e. a reverse of Maria Porphyrogenita and Maria of Antioch's fates). So we have a KoJ with ties to the HRE, France and the Byzantine empire. It would be nice if Ranier/Maria can supplant her stepmother as regent for the young Alexios II.
 
How long could the kingdom of Jerusalem potentially last if Guilhem/William survives? And I imagine this would butterfly Sibylle's half-sister, Isabelle's remarriage to Corrado, but I'm not sure if she'd still marry Onfroi de Toron, though (was he Chatillon supporter?) That said, an interesting butterfly would be a Montferrat kingdom of Jerusalem - with all its ties to Europe (the Holy Roman Empire, France etc), as well as one which causes Ranier and Maria Porphyrogenita's coup against Dowager Empress Maria of Antioch in Constantinople to be successful (i.e. a reverse of Maria Porphyrogenita and Maria of Antioch's fates). So we have a KoJ with ties to the HRE, France and the Byzantine empire. It would be nice if Ranier/Maria can supplant her stepmother as regent for the young Alexios II.

A Montferrat Byzantine regency could be interesting. Would Renier be able to keep Andronikos II out of power permanently? Or would he only be kept out until Alexios II's majority? And would brothers ruling in Constantinople AND Jerusalem make much of a difference - Saladin and Richard Coeur de Lion might be put in an interesting spot if the Byzzies and KoJ start working together
 
Okay. So more kids for him and Sibylle are a given too? She had more kids with Guy so it's not as though Baudouin V's birth left her unable to have more kids.

What was William's relationship with his in-laws (particularly Baudouin IV) like? Do we know? Also his abilities as a statesman or a general? We wouldn't want William to survive just to be a Guy-lite
I think he was a competent enough general and yes more kids for them are a given... OTL Baudouin V was born after his father's death (like his double cousin Maria) and Sibylle had other kids so we have zero reason for not giving him many sibigling
 
I think he was a competent enough general and yes more kids for them are a given... OTL Baudouin V was born after his father's death (like his double cousin Maria) and Sibylle had other kids so we have zero reason for not giving him many sibigling

Assuming at least some of those are male, might the Hierosalemite succession being more secure also play a role (assuming of course that the brothers aren't a bunch of frateicidal maniacs) in prolonging the kingdom's life? OTL it seemed to change dynasties each generation which probably didn't help.

What do you think of what Jonas said about Montferrat control in Jerusalem AND Byzantium? Could it happen or is it too ASB?
 
Okay. So more kids for him and Sibylle are a given too? She had more kids with Guy so it's not as though Baudouin V's birth left her unable to have more kids.

What was William's relationship with his in-laws (particularly Baudouin IV) like? Do we know? Also his abilities as a statesman or a general? We wouldn't want William to survive just to be a Guy-lite
All the Montferrats of that generation were excellent generals, but generally in urban combat as practiced in Italy rather than field battles. So whether he can beat Saladin, hard to say.
 
All the Montferrats of that generation were excellent generals, but generally in urban combat as practiced in Italy rather than field battles. So whether he can beat Saladin, hard to say.

Corrado seemed to do rather well from what I can make out. Saladin at least had a grudging respect for him. Whether William's of a similar calibre IDK
 
I found this in a discussion on Alexios II, and was wondering how a survival of that emperor (particularly under a successful regency of either Maria of Antioch or Maria Porphyrogenita/Ranier brother to the king of Jerusalem) would impact things. I like the idea of Andronikos II not surviving but I wonder how soon it would be before Byzantium and Jerusalrm would cone to loggerheads? AFAIK Alexios II's father was acknowledged as a sort of unofficial overlord to Amalric of Jerusalem, while William might (especially if his brother's married to the regent) try for a more equal relationship than lord-vassal.

if we push the pod to manuel's death or near it andronikos may not even beome emperor. After all the story of Anronikos Komnenos is one of amazing luck and he almost died numerous times during his various exiles and his actions. So if Andronikos dies during one of his ridiculous escapades the he wont be a threat. Next the regency can survive but you need to get rid of Alexius the protesebastos somehow. Then If she(maria alexius mother) rules like a normal regent rather than one who takes lovers and sidelines her son and his allies, then I see no reason why Alexius cant become live to become emperor. If so you would see an ere aligned with France and may turn its attention west rather than east. the big problem though is how to get rid of simmering tensions beetween the orthdox byzatnine citizens and the catholic latins since a big reason in otl why after maria was overthrown by alexius half sister andonikos was welcomed into capital since he was not a latin.

I was wondering how we could calm things between the Orthodox and the Latins as well. Since it wouldn't stay in Constantinople. The bad blood could poison a fair few relationships (Alexios' relations to his wife, Agnes; his brother-in-law, Renier; as well as to Latinate Jerusalem)
 
Sibylle was extraordinary loyal to Guy (I imagine she would've been to William as well) apparently, the case of having their marriage annulled only to remarry him. Baudouin IV seems to have had second thoughts about the Sibylle-Guy marriage though, naming a child king (Baudouin V) ahead of his adult sister. Now, whether that was due to male-preference succession or just because Baudouin IV had his reservations about Guy I'm not sure.

However, apparently due to the annulment of Baudouin and Sibylle's own parents marriage, there were some who regarded Isabella as legal heiress, but her husband at the time (Onfroi IV de Toron) didn't push for her claim.

So, would the same question arise in the event of Baudouin IV's death? William's got connections to Europe that Guy didn't have, and his brother, Corrado proved how difficult it made things (for Guy, Richard Coeur de Lion etc). Would Baudouin IV still attempt to place his nephew ahead of his sister?
 
Sibylle was extraordinary loyal to Guy (I imagine she would've been to William as well) apparently, the case of having their marriage annulled only to remarry him. Baudouin IV seems to have had second thoughts about the Sibylle-Guy marriage though, naming a child king (Baudouin V) ahead of his adult sister. Now, whether that was due to male-preference succession or just because Baudouin IV had his reservations about Guy I'm not sure.

However, apparently due to the annulment of Baudouin and Sibylle's own parents marriage, there were some who regarded Isabella as legal heiress, but her husband at the time (Onfroi IV de Toron) didn't push for her claim.

So, would the same question arise in the event of Baudouin IV's death? William's got connections to Europe that Guy didn't have, and his brother, Corrado proved how difficult it made things (for Guy, Richard Coeur de Lion etc). Would Baudouin IV still attempt to place his nephew ahead of his sister?
No. Sybilla still married to William would be the indisputed heiress there...
Baldwin V was named ahead of his mother exclusively for trying to keep Guy away from the throne...
I think Baldwin IV had big reservation about that wedding from the start while Sybilla was madly in love with Guy from the start. We do not know when Sybilla’s children by Guy are born but I think really plausible who Sybilla was already pregnant with Guy’s child at the time of the wedding and who that was the main reason for her brother’s consent to the wedding
 
Last edited:
Top