WI: A Surviving Henry V of England?

Basically, what are the effects if Henry V of England survives much longer than he did OTL? His death in 1422 at 36 was young even for the 100s, so we could probably have him live until the 1440s, maybe 1442 so we get exactly 20 more years out of him. Would England and France stay together under his rule?

To settle the children thing, here is his children ITL:

Henry V of England (b.1386: d.1442) m. Catherine de Valois (b.1401: d.1437) (a)

1a) Henry VI of England (b.1421)

2a) Mary of England (b.1423: d.1424)

3a) Blanche of England (b.1424)

4a) Thomas of England, Duke of Clarence (b.1427)

5a) Miscarriage (c.1428)

6a) Philippa of England (b.1431)

7a) Anne of England (b.1433)

8a) Stillborn Son (c.1434)

9a) Miscarriage (c.1437)​
 
Maybe he can mould Henry VI into something more useful, though if Henry retains his OTL personality he may have a difficult relationship with his military-minded father.

Would Henry V push ahead and be crowned King of France immediately after Charles VI's death? And how successful would he be trying to assert control over France (would there be problems regarding finances and manpower at some point?).
 
Maybe he can mould Henry VI into something more useful, though if Henry retains his OTL personality he may have a difficult relationship with his military-minded father.

Would Henry V push ahead and be crowned King of France immediately after Charles VI's death? And how successful would he be trying to assert control over France (would there be problems regarding finances and manpower at some point?).

I can't imagine a situation where having a father/king around as you grow up doesn't significantly alter your personality one way or another.
 
I can't imagine a situation where having a father/king around as you grow up doesn't significantly alter your personality one way or another.

The addition of siblings should also help our Henry VI of England be less like he was OTL. He grew up around old men, so maybe having some other princes and princesses around might help him, especially if this extended royal family allows Henry V to bring in lots of wards to grow up with his children.
 
The addition of siblings should also help our Henry VI of England be less like he was OTL. He grew up around old men, so maybe having some other princes and princesses around might help him, especially if this extended royal family allows Henry V to bring in lots of wards to grow up with his children.

Yeah, though to be clear, by different I don't necessarily mean better, or more functional, or whatnot. I could see Henry V being an absolute bastard of a dad...or great, or meh, or w/e. I think it certain he and siblings would mean a different person, but that can go many ways. In a lot of Plantagenet families, brothers are just other men you might have to defeat/kill.
 
Scenario: The death of Henry V of England in 1422 seemed a sure thing when he came down badly with dysentery in August. Fortunately, by September the King had recovered and at the end of the month he made ready to return to England to see his newly born son. The trip was surprisingly without issues and he joined Catherine de Valois in London as his son, the year old Henry Plantagenet, was given the titles Duke of Normandy and Prince of Wales as his fathers heir. The title of Duke of Normandy had been a late addition by the King, who had decided to make a grand gesture following the Treaty of Troyes. From that ceremony, the royal couple returned to France once again, to set up court in Aquitaine. However, things were not that simple.

In that same year, shortly after arriving in France, news arrived the King of France, Charles VI, had died. Sensing his time was now, the King of England rushed to Paris and claimed his throne, having his young bride join him half a month later. The two were coronated in Rhiems, at a time when Catherine de Valois was discovered as pregnant with the couple's second child. It was at this time that Henry V of England began his campaign against the former Dauphin, as his main rival. Charles de Valois, titular King of France, was protected by the titular Queen of Aragon, Yolande, Duchess of Anjou. Hoping to draw the young man out of hiding, the King of England and France offered these things:

  1. To recognize and respect Yolande's claims to the Aragonese Throne, and to support her militarily if she wished to make good on those claims.
  2. To agree to a marriage between the either her daughters Marie (if she was left widowed) or Yolande to his brother John, Duke of Bedford or a match between a son of his (although not the "Dauphin and Prince of Wales" in particular) and a granddaughter of the "Queen of Aragons", if she might have one.
  3. The knowledge that, if she did not repute the marriage between her daughter and the illegitimate son of Charles VI of France, her daughter would be gently treated after the traitor to the crown had been dealt with and Henry would provide her with a respectable dower.
With these items on the table, Yolande of Aragon seems to have been somewhat tempted and, with the knowledge his mother-in-law might sell him out, the former Dauphin fled in hopes of reaching the court of Burgundy or even reaching Scotland, a tradition French ally. Unfortunately, this was the wrong move and the young man was captured and sent to the newly crowned King and Queen of England and France. As a traitor to their throne, he was sentenced to death. However, as his sister, the new Queen of France fell on her knees in front of the court and begged for her brother's life. It seems this, unlike many other events of this nature, was totally spontaneous, and not what the King had in mind. However, mindful of his bride's condition, he agreed simply to imprison him, as he had done the Duke of Orleans, who in this same ceremony was stripped of his title, which was granted to the Duke of Bedford. The Duke of Clarence, in the same day, was created the Duke of Aquitaine. With these royal positions, the new French monarchy looked secure and the royal family rejoiced.

The "accidental" death of the Dauphin in custody during a fire during the Christmas celebrations that same year is generally seen as the workings of the King. However, this may just as well have been the workings of his brothers or even an actual accident, which not only killed the political rival of the new French King but seven other men and women in the tower, serving that man. Whatever it was, the shock was enough to cause his bride, currently a lady-in-waiting to Queen Catherine, to undergo a miscarriage. Thus, the Valois line came to an end.

The birth of Marie Plantagenet in June of 1423 was an event celebrated much more grandly than what was expected for a Princess. But as the first child born after the royal couple had been coronated in France, it proved to be a moment of triumph. Added to that was the departure of Humphrey Plantagenet to England, where he would remain as regent for a time. Married to Jacqueline, titular Countess of Hainaut, he would reside in London in the place of his brother, who would not return to England for the next few years. While in England, his consort would suffer a miscarriage, of what would be her only child.

Tensions in France would brew for some time and in early 1424, after Catherine de Valois announced her third pregnancy, the Duke of Burgundy declared himself rightful King of France. This came barely 6 months after his sister had been married to the Duke of Bedford and Orleans, which he cared not for. Instead, he began a campaign, boistered by his recent marriage (due to the death of his wife in 1422) to Marie of Anjou, which had occured the year previously as part of Henry V's scheme to create marriage bonds between the three areas. Unfortunately, the two parties moved against him and civil war began again between the Plantagenet and the Valois, although this time with a cadet branch. This would be the war that would decide the English crown's fate.

The birth of his second daughter in August, shortly before his Queen left for England to join his brother, brought joy to the King. Named Blanche, the Princess was a healthy, robust child. The royal family, including the new Duchess of Bedford and Orleans, left under the cover of night in October. A rocky journey by boat, the Queen, Dauphin/Prince of Wales and newborn Princess made it to London in one piece, although unfortunately the infant Princess Mary Plantagenet would die in the journey, although records do not say how. What is known is that she was buried in a tomb Catherine herself had designed and built that year as a monument to her marriage, at York. However, whatever his family was doing was of not concern to the King, who in battle for the crown he had only so recently won. Tearing down many soldiers, he managed to win for a time, holding Paris and most of Normandy and the rest of his traditional holdings. He even managed to actual take certain areas in Anjou previously out of his reach. It was the death of his brother, the Duke of Bedford and Orleans in 1426, that was his undoing. Without his right hand, the King faltered for a moment and in January of 1427 retreated to his holdings in Normandy, having to leave Paris entirely.

With this failure, Henry V returned to England for a period of 3 months, during which time he did several things. He had his sister-in-law, the Dowager Duchess of Bedford and Orleans, placed under arrest for treason due to her contact with her brother (letters filled only with family gossip but it was enough for him to arrest her at the time) and rallied the troops, managing to see his wife and children only twice in this time, although a child did result in he and his wife's meeting. Thus he returned to France, but would never again be the powerhouse he once was.

His time in fight France this time was spent mostly protecting his lands in Normandy and Aquitaine, along with various other small areas. Eventually, it came time for a full treaty and thus the Treaty of Étaples was signed in 1430, which recognized Henry V's own claims to the throne but extended the lands of Burgundy out further and agreed to allow Anne of Burgundy her dower lands. Finally at peace, the Plantagenet King also agreed to marry his daughter to the recent son of Philip, Duke of Burgundy, Charles of Burgundy. And with the recent annulment of his brother and Jacqueline, titular Countess of Hainaut, he also agreed to marry his younger brother to the Dowager Duchess if she might agree to it, which she did. A dispensation was procured and in June, 1431, the two were married. They would have one child, a daughter born the next year.

Returning to France, the royal family was once again whole. The King greeted son, Thomas Plantagenet, who was granted his dead uncle's titles and lands. Thus the royal family continued to grow with the birth of another Princess, Anne Plantagenet, in 1433 and a final one in 1435 with the birth of the Princes Alice, who would unfortunately meet the same fate as her eldest sister and die young. With a good sized royal family and peace in France, it seemed to be a good time for the King. However, it would be his brother who brought troubles to him, in the form of yet another civil war.

In England, the Duke of Gloucester and Berry was a rich man with a beautiful wife and a healthy daughter. The Duchess Anne of Burgundy and the Lady Agnes of Middleham (where she had been born) were quite happy in their position as the highest family in England. However, Humphrey Plantagenet was an ambitious man who longed for the real power his brother had and thus, in 1432, agreed to a coup. He would betroth his daughter to James, Duke of Rothesay and heir to the Scottish Throne, and the King of Scots would support him in a takeover of England. The plan seemed foolproof and in 1535 the King of Scots was present when Humphrey was crowned Humphrey I of England, Lord of Ireland. He only aimed for the Isles, claiming in a letter to the Duke of Burgundy:

Our King of France has been gone from this land so long he is a foreigner. Is it right to let him rule when, in reality, this is what I do instead? This was, I can be a brother King to him and to you, and not a subject.

But a subject he was and in November of that year the King of France descended on England to reclaim his throne. Henry V would arrive in England after having his son, the 14 year old Henry Plantagenet, crowned as his co-monarchy as King of France, although not of England. Making it to London, he began what would be a 2 year campaign against his brother. With a major ally in the Duke of York, the Duke of Gloucester was slowly pushed back to Scotland itself. There, it became obvious that he had bet on a losing horse, so the King of Scots had his ally imprisoned and sent to his brother. The two Kings would sign many agreements and in May of 1539 the Prince of Wales/King Henry II of France married Margaret Stewart. The royal couple would reside in London themselves as Regent, with the loyal Duke of York as his right hand. The Prince of Wales had grown into a young man who may not have been the strong commander that his father was, but with a strong piety and the ability to take advice. Not a great man, but a good one who, with the right people around him, would rule well.

The marriage pact between Agnes of Middleham and James, Duke of Rothesay would stay the same, after revisions had been made (basically removing her right to the English and French Thrones). and the two were married in 1442, after which Henry V of England, I of France would return to Paris. There, his wife and their children waited. His eldest surviving daughter had married the heir to Burgundy in 1440, aged 17, but he still had his youngest son and daughter. Anne Plantagenet, always a sweet girl, he knew was not made for Queendom and thus, in May of 1442, she was betrothed to Edward Plantagenet, Earl of March and would join her cousins in England. It was suddenly, aged 56, that Henry V of England died.
 
Charles of Valois, OTL Charles VII, was not a great king by himself. This is why he was called Charles VII the well served.

The important fact is that Charles VII was but the head of a party : the party of Orleans/Armagnac that turned out to be considered as the party of France because the Plantagenet (Henry V's'way of conquering Normandy was terrible) did not have the clue to act and show themselves as french princes but as king or regent of England.

This is what doomed the Plantagenet's attempts to establish themselves as accepted kings of France.

If Charles VII died early, then his legitimate heir is the Valois Orleans branch (Charles of Orleans and John of Angouleme, both Prisoners in England). At that time, Valois Burgundy come not only after them but also after the Valois Anjou and there is no way they will be accepted as king as long as the elder branches survive, especially given their part in helping the Plantagenet get the throne.
And the Valois Anjou were very important in the party supporting Charles VII, along with Alençon, Richemont and Dunois (the bastard son of the first duke of Orleans, and younger brother of the 2 prisoners).

So they won't drop the fight for mere vapor and will fight and resist quite successfully as long as the Plantagenet don't enforce successfully a policy that makes them accepted as legitimate french kings. The project of conquering legitimacy with an army mainly made of english-speaking soldiers of with aquitanians that had been Plantagenet subjects for 3 centuries was a dead-end.
 
Charles of Valois, OTL Charles VII, was not a great king by himself. This is why he was called Charles VII the well served.

The important fact is that Charles VII was but the head of a party : the party of Orleans/Armagnac that turned out to be considered as the party of France because the Plantagenet (Henry V's'way of conquering Normandy was terrible) did not have the clue to act and show themselves as french princes but as king or regent of England.

This is what doomed the Plantagenet's attempts to establish themselves as accepted kings of France.

If Charles VII died early, then his legitimate heir is the Valois Orleans branch (Charles of Orleans and John of Angouleme, both Prisoners in England). At that time, Valois Burgundy come not only after them but also after the Valois Anjou and there is no way they will be accepted as king as long as the elder branches survive, especially given their part in helping the Plantagenet get the throne.
And the Valois Anjou were very important in the party supporting Charles VII, along with Alençon, Richemont and Dunois (the bastard son of the first duke of Orleans, and younger brother of the 2 prisoners).

So they won't drop the fight for mere vapor and will fight and resist quite successfully as long as the Plantagenet don't enforce successfully a policy that makes them accepted as legitimate french kings. The project of conquering legitimacy with an army mainly made of english-speaking soldiers of with aquitanians that had been Plantagenet subjects for 3 centuries was a dead-end.

I fully agree it will be quite difficult, and I think the true way to win is going to be Burgundy.

Philip III has no apparent desire for the French crown (he has too many family members ahead of him) but he's very interested in being kingmaker. Philip together with a competent Henry V might beat the Armagnacs even if Henry alone would have issues. Of course if he bet on that horse, by the time the Armagnac/Orleans party is defeated Burgundy will probably stretch from Picardie via Paris to Lyon while also holding the Netherlands, and Philip will be king in all but name - just not of a new smaller France, but of a resurrected 'Neustria' between Rhine and Seine.
 
Henry V of England (b.1386: d.1442) m. Catherine de Valois (b.1401: d.1449) (a)

1a) Henry VI of England (b.1421) m. Margaret Stewart (b.1424: d.1451) (a), Catherine of Portugal (b.1436: d.1466) (b)

1a) Henry VII of England (b.1447)

2a) Miscarriage (c.1451)

3b) Eleanor Plantagenet (b.1455)

4b) Roger Plantagenet, Duke of Gloucester and Aquitaine (b.1456)​

2a) Mary Plantagenet (b.1423: d.1424)

3a) Blanche Plantagenet (b.1424: d.1487) m. Charles I, Duke of Burgundy (b.1425: d.1471) (a)

1a) Margaret I, Duchess of Burgundy (b.1444)

2a) Stillborn Son (c.1446)

3a) Charles of Burgundy (b.1449: d.1465)

4a) Mary of Burgundy (b.1451)

5a) John of Burgundy (b.1454: d.1460)

6a) Miscarriage (c.1455)

7a) Stillborn Son (c.1457)

8a) Catherine of Burgundy (b.1460)

9a) Louis of Burgundy (b.1461: d.1470)​

4a) Thomas of England, Duke of Clarence and Orleans (b.1427: d.1475) m. Maria of Cleves (b.1426: d.1487) (a)

1a) Jacquetta Plantagenet (b.1458)

2a) Edward Plantagenet, 2nd Duke of Clarence and Orleans (b.1462)

3a) Eleanor Plantagenet (b.1465)​

5a) Anne Plantagenet (b.1433: d.1467) m. Edward Plantagenet, 4th Duke of York (b.1442: d.1485) (a)

1a) Henry Plantagenet, 5th Duke of York (b.1459)

2a) Edward of York (b.1460: d.1462)

3a) Elizabeth of York (b.1462)

4a) Richard of York (b.1463)

5a) Thomas of York (b.1464: d.1464)

6a) Cecily of York (b.1466)

7a) Margaret of York (b.1467)​

6a) Alice Plantagenet (b.1435: d.1436)​
 
Top