WI: A strong Protestant Union in the 30 years war.

What if there was a strong Protestant Union at the outbreak of the 30 years war under the leadership of the Elector Palatine as Frederick I, King of Bohemia?
( My TL has him defeat Ferdinand II and rising to the throne instead of being chased off to the Netherlands. )

Would this convince more german princes to join? Would this political strength lead to more conversions? With which European nations would they find support or maybe even form alliances? Would such a protestant union be able to survive? If so, for how long? How would this possibly affect the possibility of a german unifaction in the future?

Since I only have a PoD for my ATL and not really decided on where I want to go with it I'd love to make it evolve with the help of all you AH enthousiasts. So, there are enough questions above, take your pick and let me know your thoughts. Thanks.
 
Here's a map of what it would look like at 1620-ish.
- grey: Protestant Union (including Saxony in my ATL: https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=139699 )
- green: Catholic League.
- Yellow: Imperial lands.

UnionLeagueBohemiaandEmperorIV.png
 
( My TL has him defeat Ferdinand II and rising to the throne instead of being chased off to the Netherlands. )

An Imperial defeat in Bohemia is extremely unlikely, unless the Saxon Elector takes a decisively active part. For this, you would have to argue why he would do that; Johann Georg was loyal to the Emperor, adversary to all non-Lutheran Protestants (like Frederic V. of Palatinate, or the Bohemians), and still grateful for the Electorate his family branch has won from their cousins for allying with the Emperor in a religious war.

A stronger Protestant Union is of course possible, where the most probable version of "stronger" is "less discordant". Beside the issues between Lutherans and Calvinists and the fearful lack of solidarity with the Bohemian revolt, the Union needs a powerful and resolute leading figure (this vacancy was later filled by the Swedish king IOTL). That could be the Saxon or the Palatine Elector, if not defeated at the very beginning.

Here's a map of what it would look like at 1620-ish.
- grey: Protestant Union (including Saxony in my ATL:

So in your TL, all princes and entities line up with one side or the other?
No tactical maneuvering? No profiteering neutrality (Hansa cities)?
This is going to be ugly ...
(as in: 30 years of war condensed into 5).

And it implies that all Protestant rulers/city administrations are decided to go to war for religious reasons; an attitude which had lost popularity in the past 50 years.
 
An Imperial defeat in Bohemia is extremely unlikely, unless the Saxon Elector takes a decisively active part. For this, you would have to argue why he would do that

ValdemarII pointed that out to me in my original ATL post. He suggested that promising Berg and Jülich, which were possessions of the Elector Palatine to be given to Saxony.

A stronger Protestant Union is of course possible, where the most probable version of "stronger" is "less discordant". Beside the issues between Lutherans and Calvinists and the fearful lack of solidarity with the Bohemian revolt, the Union needs a powerful and resolute leading figure (this vacancy was later filled by the Swedish king IOTL). That could be the Saxon or the Palatine Elector, if not defeated at the very beginning.

Yeah, I was hoping to turn Frederick V into a much more charismatic man with stronger leadership qualities. Might be too much of a 'what if', but I mean... he might as well have been. Right?


So in your TL, all princes and entities line up with one side or the other?
No tactical maneuvering? No profiteering neutrality (Hansa cities)?

Well, not everyone sides up. The entire north stays neutral: East Frisa, Mecklenburg, Oldenburg, Brunswick Lüneberg, Magdenburg, Pommerania and in the south Lorraine. But I guess I am going for a more heavy conflict yes. And some might shift, maybe, just working on a starting point I guess.

And it implies that all Protestant rulers/city administrations are decided to go to war for religious reasons; an attitude which had lost popularity in the past 50 years.

That is an interesting point. I havn't thought of that. Perhaps there are some political advantages Frederick could offer as head of the Protestant Union, but I guess I'll have to read up more on the situation.

Thank you for your elaborate response. It's very helpful and I'll surely be reading your 30 years war TL!
 
I forgot to say: In most cases of religious conflicts of that time, one side could be indignated about the appalling suppression (sometimes both sides could).
With Bohemia, it was different, because it was a revolution agaist a legitimate monarch, all revisions of legal regulations on religious matters notwithstanding. In other words: If this happened today, we would hear the words "internal affairs" a lot ...

ValdemarII pointed that out to me in my original ATL post. He suggested that promising Berg and Jülich, which were possessions of the Elector Palatine to be given to Saxony.

The conflict about Jülich-Kleve-Berg is definitely an important key to get your TL going.
As it started between two Lutheran Princes in the 1610s, it would add to Protestant concord if it would be settled quickly and to the benevolence of all. Perhaps with an agreement which also noninvolved prices would enjoy, because of some prinicpal statement?

Yeah, I was hoping to turn Frederick V into a much more charismatic man with stronger leadership qualities. Might be too much of a 'what if', but I mean... he might as well have been. Right?

He definitely was a resolute character. IOTL, that turned out not so advantageous in his place. In your TL, that might well raise his renomm'ee ...





Thank you for your elaborate response. It's very helpful and I'll surely be reading your 30 years war TL!


Your welcome. Thank you very much and see you there!
 
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