WI: A Spanish East Indies without Luzon

What if the Spanish failed to colonize Luzon because they found a different Luzon which has more population and more linguistically united than OTL and more Stronger and larger states(or united) and because of that they are able to repel the Spanish just like what the Indonesian polities did to them, what will happen to the Philippines in General?
 
What if the Spanish failed to colonize Luzon because they found a different Luzon which has more population and more linguistically united than OTL and more Stronger and larger states(or united) and because of that they are able to repel the Spanish just like what the Indonesian polities did to them, what will happen to the Philippines in General?


I would geuss they would send more ships later but the real question is what would the luzon filippinos do after contact with the spanish?

I was planning to do a combined Korean Philippine timeline question that would lead to such a state on luzon. I wanted to know if it would have an impact on korea but i now wonder how the spanish would respond to the stronger Philippines?
 
I would geuss they would send more ships later but the real question is what would the luzon filippinos do after contact with the spanish?

I was planning to do a combined Korean Philippine timeline question that would lead to such a state on luzon. I wanted to know if it would have an impact on korea but i now wonder how the spanish would respond to the stronger Philippines?

Aside from being immuned to smallpox, the Spanish never conquered the Cordillerans/Igorots and Mangyans in Luzon so that means the Spanish would not really be able to conquer a more united and more populous Luzon, they can conquer a part of it but not all.

Aside from the Political unification if the Dialects of the Plains of Luzon namely the Cagayan Valley area and the Central Luzon area merged into one language because of Population increase the resulting language would swamp the other languages in Luzon gradually.

I think the Luzon polity(ies) would trade with Korea and Japan as well so there would be effects in Korea and Japan as well.

Your TL idea is similar to my TL idea.
 
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The POD of my timeline was going to be Jang Bogo of unified Silla learning of the court plot to assassinate him fleeing with his fleet to taiwan but a storm blows him off course and he ends up on the Babuyan islands and establishes a kingdom that for a time trades as a thalassocracy but himself as a self styled emperor. He marries his daughter to a Luzon Maynila Datu and builds a small trading empire dominating the trade to japan and taiwan.

He lived in the Middle 800s and was said to have visitd the Philippines in his life time and was in control of the yellow sea with his fleet and was even a Prime minister for a time. I would see him introduce horses into the Philippines in the 846 which he would have brought with him o imported later. He would have built Budhist temples where ever he went.

In otl he would have died in 845
 
The POD of my timeline was going to be Jang Bogo of unified Silla learning of the court plot to assassinate him fleeing with his fleet to taiwan but a storm blows him off course and he ends up on the Babuyan islands and establishes a kingdom that for a time trades as a thalassocracy but himself as a self styled emperor. He marries his daughter to a Luzon Maynila Datu and builds a small trading empire dominating the trade to japan and taiwan.

He lived in the Middle 800s and was said to have visitd the Philippines in his life time and was in control of the yellow sea with his fleet and was even a Prime minister for a time. I would see him introduce horses into the Philippines in the 846 which he would have brought with him o imported later. He would have built Budhist temples where ever he went.

In otl he would have died in 845
That would be cool, I would be waiting for your timeline.:)

In one of my current TL's I married the "Luzon" Royalty to the Surviving Goryeo Royalty, that was a double marriage which meant the "Luzon" Royalty has Goryeo blood and the Goryeo Royalty has "Luzon" Blood as well.
 
The POD of my timeline was going to be Jang Bogo of unified Silla learning of the court plot to assassinate him fleeing with his fleet to taiwan but a storm blows him off course and he ends up on the Babuyan islands and establishes a kingdom that for a time trades as a thalassocracy but himself as a self styled emperor. He marries his daughter to a Luzon Maynila Datu and builds a small trading empire dominating the trade to japan and taiwan.

He lived in the Middle 800s and was said to have visitd the Philippines in his life time and was in control of the yellow sea with his fleet and was even a Prime minister for a time. I would see him introduce horses into the Philippines in the 846 which he would have brought with him o imported later. He would have built Budhist temples where ever he went.

In otl he would have died in 845

This would require a complete change in his personality. Chang Bogo tried to marry his daughter to the king of Silla: why would he settle for a political marriage with a minor ruler of a barbarian country? Besides, if he knows of a trade route between Japan and Philippines, he'd probably find a way to get back to Silla, as the trade routes between Japan and the Korean Peninsula had been established by the 9th century.

I don't know if he visited Taiwan or Philippines. At first glance, this seems like an odd assertion, so I'd like to see more evidence for this.

That would be cool, I would be waiting for your timeline.:)

In one of my current TL's I married the "Luzon" Royalty to the Surviving Goryeo Royalty, that was a double marriage which meant the "Luzon" Royalty has Goryeo blood and the Goryeo Royalty has "Luzon" Blood as well.

This seems like one of those ideas that exist solely for their mention in the thread for unlikely and random combinations of royal houses.
 
This seems like one of those ideas that exist solely for their mention in the thread for unlikely and random combinations of royal houses.

No, they are just marrying for recognition and alliance and in no way it would result in a personal union, remember Kim Suro marrying an Indian Princess, and ITTL the "Luzon" kingdom was already considered "civilized" at the time the marriage alliance was made.
 
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No, they are just marrying for recognition and alliance and in no way it would result in a personal union, remember Kim Suro marrying an Indian Princess, and ITTL the "Luzon" kingdom was already considered "civilized" at the time the marriage alliance was made.

I can't say anything about your timeline. But in reality, the story about Suro is pretty obviously fictional, and even if it was real, he was from Kaya and not Silla.
 
The POD of my timeline was going to be Jang Bogo of unified Silla learning of the court plot to assassinate him fleeing with his fleet to taiwan but a storm blows him off course and he ends up on the Babuyan islands and establishes a kingdom that for a time trades as a thalassocracy but himself as a self styled emperor. He marries his daughter to a Luzon Maynila Datu and builds a small trading empire dominating the trade to japan and taiwan.

He lived in the Middle 800s and was said to have visitd the Philippines in his life time and was in control of the yellow sea with his fleet and was even a Prime minister for a time. I would see him introduce horses into the Philippines in the 846 which he would have brought with him o imported later. He would have built Budhist temples where ever he went.

In otl he would have died in 845

Either Jang Bogo would find a way back to Silla before he died, or he would essentially lose contact with his home country. While he depended on maintaining a reasonably sized fleet in order to patrol the waters, this would be extremely difficult to maintain in such a new and (intially) hostile environment. After most of his fleet would be scattered, he would first have to convince a significant amount of natives in order to rebuild his fleet, which would be extremely unlikely. The fact that he would be vastly outnumbered when he would arrive shipwrecked almost certainly guarantees assimilation into the local populace, or death, within a generation or two.

In one of my current TL's I married the "Luzon" Royalty to the Surviving Goryeo Royalty, that was a double marriage which meant the "Luzon" Royalty has Goryeo blood and the Goryeo Royalty has "Luzon" Blood as well.

This doesn't work at all within East Asia. The Chinese conducted heqin until the 8th century, in which Chinese rulers married off princesses to nomadic chieftains, but the peace was only valid for the duration of the marriage itself. As a result, it required various marriages in order to maintain even the semblance of cordial relations, and Goryeo would be much more concerned with protecting the northern border and trading with its closest neighbors than sending more further south.

In terms of Korea, Silla and Baekje rulers sporadically married the others' princesses, but the peace only lasted for the duration of the marriage, not to mention that it was frequently broken. Baekje attacked Silla consistently throughout its existence, most notably in 399 when it sieged Silla's capital, while Silla finally counterattacked in 553 by breaking the previous alliance against Goguryeo and seized the Han River Valley. Later, Goryeo commoners married Mongol Khans, and Mongol princesses married Goryeo rulers, due to stringent requirements in order to maintain the "peace," but succession was not affected in any way. The arrangement also did not prevent Gongmin from maintaining an aggressive stance and attacking Liaodong, even though he was essentially Mongolian in terms of ethnicity after numerous marriages.

No, they are just marrying for recognition and alliance and in no way it would result in a personal union, remember Kim Suro marrying an Indian Princess, and ITTL the "Luzon" kingdom was already considered "civilized" at the time the marriage alliance was made.

The marriages would have to be consistent for the "alliance" to be maintained in any way, which would be virtually impossible considering that Goryeo would already have its hands full with numerous other issues. If the state was concerned with either defending itself from substantial incursions, or retaining trading relations, it wouldn't think about sending anyone further south, not to mention that "marriage alliances" were virtually nonexistent in general, with very few specific exceptions.

In addition, Kim Suro probably married an Indian princess, but there is essentially no mention of close ties between the states, most likely due to logistics.

I can't say anything about your timeline. But in reality, the story about Suro is pretty obviously fictional, and even if it was real, he was from Kaya and not Silla.

The issue isn't whether the story itself was fictional or not, but whether an alliance could be maintained at all, which probably won't happen regardless of the circumstances.
 
It may not be what you had in mind, but Mckinley initially only wanted to annex the Isle of Luzon.
 
Either Jang Bogo would find a way back to Silla before he died, or he would essentially lose contact with his home country. While he depended on maintaining a reasonably sized fleet in order to patrol the waters, this would be extremely difficult to maintain in such a new and (intially) hostile environment. After most of his fleet would be scattered, he would first have to convince a significant amount of natives in order to rebuild his fleet, which would be extremely unlikely. The fact that he would be vastly outnumbered when he would arrive shipwrecked almost certainly guarantees assimilation into the local populace, or death, within a generation or two.



This doesn't work at all within East Asia. The Chinese conducted heqin until the 8th century, in which Chinese rulers married off princesses to nomadic chieftains, but the peace was only valid for the duration of the marriage itself. As a result, it required various marriages in order to maintain even the semblance of cordial relations, and Goryeo would be much more concerned with protecting the northern border and trading with its closest neighbors than sending more further south.

In terms of Korea, Silla and Baekje rulers sporadically married the others' princesses, but the peace only lasted for the duration of the marriage, not to mention that it was frequently broken. Baekje attacked Silla consistently throughout its existence, most notably in 399 when it sieged Silla's capital, while Silla finally counterattacked in 553 by breaking the previous alliance against Goguryeo and seized the Han River Valley. Later, Goryeo commoners married Mongol Khans, and Mongol princesses married Goryeo rulers, due to stringent requirements in order to maintain the "peace," but succession was not affected in any way. The arrangement also did not prevent Gongmin from maintaining an aggressive stance and attacking Liaodong, even though he was essentially Mongolian in terms of ethnicity after numerous marriages.



The marriages would have to be consistent for the "alliance" to be maintained in any way, which would be virtually impossible considering that Goryeo would already have its hands full with numerous other issues. If the state was concerned with either defending itself from substantial incursions, or retaining trading relations, it wouldn't think about sending anyone further south, not to mention that "marriage alliances" were virtually nonexistent in general, with very few specific exceptions.

In addition, Kim Suro probably married an Indian princess, but there is essentially no mention of close ties between the states, most likely due to logistics.



The issue isn't whether the story itself was fictional or not, but whether an alliance could be maintained at all, which probably won't happen regardless of the circumstances.
That is right perhaps, the alliance can't be maintained most likely because Selurong would be under Japanese/wukou pressure, perhaps marrying a Japanese noblewoman would be sensible enough.


It may not be what you had in mind, but Mckinley initially only wanted to annex the Isle of Luzon.
The same thing that the Brits could had done.
 

Initially the United States only wanted to claim Manila Bay as a Coaling Station, but after some time it was decided that it would be better to just take control of the whole of Luzon. However, it quickly became clear that by taking Luzon, the remainder would be left to other powers such as Germany, France, or Japan, which the United States found unacceptable. The result was a decision between the choices of leaving the Philippines as a whole in Spanish hands, or annexing the Philippines as a whole to the United States.

Independence was never seriously considered, given they expected such a state to quickly fall into anarchy, and then to other colonial powers.
 

Initially the United States only wanted to claim Manila Bay as a Coaling Station, but after some time it was decided that it would be better to just take control of the whole of Luzon. However, it quickly became clear that by taking Luzon, the remainder would be left to other powers such as Germany, France, or Japan, which the United States found unacceptable. The result was a decision between the choices of leaving the Philippines as a whole in Spanish hands, or annexing the Philippines as a whole to the United States.

Independence was never seriously considered, given they expected such a state to quickly fall into anarchy, and then to other colonial powers.

That would have been interesting..
 
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