WI:A Russian Tsar marries a Ming or Qing Princess

To be fair, the entire court of one Southern Ming emperor did become Catholic save for the Emperor himself after Portuguese cannons helped with an offensive. Doesn't make a Romonov/Southern Ming marriage any less ASB, though.

fair enough, Don't know much about Ming China.


It does beg the question: why would any king, Christian or not, try to ally with a clearly imploding house?

depends when the marriage takes place, really.
how ever, assuming everything else goes more-or-less the same, I think the Ming/European dynasty to be slightly more reasonable than a marriage to the qing.

That's not saying much, but still.
 
how ever, assuming everything else goes more-or-less the same, I think the Ming/European dynasty to be slightly more reasonable than a marriage to the qing.

That's not saying much, but still.

Why? Atleast in the Qing/European dynasty scenario the two groups had significant contact, the Ming where ridiculously isolationist and Russia was only unified and free of Horde the hordes for a fraction of the Ming's reign.
 
Why? Atleast in the Qing/European dynasty scenario the two groups had significant contact, the Ming where ridiculously isolationist and Russia was only unified and free of Horde the hordes for a fraction of the Ming's reign.

because there is much more time for the Drastic PODs that could set up a situation where this might happen.
 
An interesting scenario, but I can't really see it happening unless, instead of more European, Russia becomes more distinctly Slavic or more Asian, and some monarch gets a case of yellow fever. So no Peter the Great.
 
Only Wu Zetian reigned as an actual Empress back in the Tang Dynasty. Her eccentric reign was later used to discourage any women from attaining power. Cixi reigned behind the scenes, and is still today synonymous with manipulation.

The Japanese elite had a self-perception of being the true successors of the Chinese civilization and will be even less likely to allow a Queen to reign.

Having Christians take power in either empire also requires ASBs.

The Japanese had at least 8 female Empresses IIRC.

Given the chaotic nature of the warring states era, and the significant amount of power Christians gained in the south, does not make it seem that ASBs are required for Christians to gain power.
 
I've had enough of these silly threads:

In nomine Germanotta*, fuerit executus et eius memoria damnaretur!


*Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.
 
An interesting scenario, but I can't really see it happening unless, instead of more European, Russia becomes more distinctly Slavic or more Asian, and some monarch gets a case of yellow fever. So no Peter the Great.
Why not?
Peter the Great was able to marry anyone on one condition only: the fiancee had to convert to Orthodoxy.
Peter could marry Catherine which was much(!) more outrageous than marrying a Qing princess.

It did not have to be a political marriage, it might be lust.

The only problem is:
- I cannot imagine how to get a Qing princess to Russia so as Peter might see her and fall in love with her. :D
 
Why not?
Peter the Great was able to marry anyone on one condition only: the fiancee had to convert to Orthodoxy.
Peter could marry Catherine which was much(!) more outrageous than marrying a Qing princess.

It did not have to be a political marriage, it might be lust.

The only problem is:
- I cannot imagine how to get a Qing princess to Russia so as Peter might see her and fall in love with her. :D

Wasn't there a thread where Peter Goes East?
 
Couldn't a marriage take place just to bind an alliance rather than to create dynastic claims?

The fact there'd be a lot of others ahead of this hypothetical marriage's kids would be less important.

Hmmm...maybe a deposed Czar takes control of part of Siberia and marries a Chinese princess to get support against whoever controls the rest of the country.

Of course, what's in it for the Chinese? Maintenance of a buffer state?
 
Couldn't a marriage take place just to bind an alliance rather than to create dynastic claims?

The fact there'd be a lot of others ahead of this hypothetical marriage's kids would be less important.

Hmmm...maybe a deposed Czar takes control of part of Siberia and marries a Chinese princess to get support against whoever controls the rest of the country.

Of course, what's in it for the Chinese? Maintenance of a buffer state?

We're looking at a surviving Ivan VI, son of Anna the Tsarina regent. Ivan VI could potentially be exiled in Siberia and marry a Manchu princess.
 

HeWhoIsMe

Banned
And even EUIII realized that interfaith royal marriages didnt happen.

In 1299, Bey Orhan I, of the Ottoman Beydom married himself to Helene(Nilufer) Hatun, supposedly the daugter of a Byzantine provincial overlord and again in 1346, to Theodora Maria Cantakouzene, Princess of Byzantium and daughter of the reigning emperor Ioannes IV Cantakouzenos. Neither marriages involved the religious conversions of either ladies.
Orhan I had a son with Theodora, who could have been a contender for both thrones, named Halil. It was even arranged for Halil to marry a daughter of Ioannes the V's and Orhan I was actively nurturing him for the Ottoman throne. Too bad Orhan I died a bit too soon, and his eldest Murad I(ironically Helene's son) took the throne by force. When young Halil tried to claim the throne, his elder brother had him executed.

Anyway, this pretty little tale might be proof that such marriages could take place when there was suffiecient political interest behind them on both sides. It's what a lawyer would call precedent i think. So i would humbly suggest that the whole issue of religious incompbatibility be put to rest. There must be a million other important reasons why a Russian Czar wouldn't marry a Chinese princess.

I can hypothesize of a couple situations where a Russian Czar would find it in his best interest to pursue such a union. To strike an alliance against the Japanese? Or at least secure some sort of peace on the massive land border he shared with China, at a time when his attention was required elsewhere? I really couldn't tell for sure and other people seem to have some ideas on the matter that are interesting.

Of course, the matter of whether either or both parties would rush to acknowledge a male heir produced from this union as a viable claimant to their throne, is a whole different story...
 
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In 1299, Bey Orhan I, of the Ottoman Beydom married himself to Helene(Nilufer) Hatun, supposedly the daugter of a Byzantine provincial overlord and again in 1346, to Theodora Maria Cantakouzene, Princess of Byzantium and daughter of the reigning emperor Ioannes IV Cantakouzenos. Neither marriages involved the religious conversions of either ladies.
Orhan I had a son with Theodora, who could have been a contender for both thrones, named Halil. It was even arranged for Halil to marry a daughter of Ioannes the V's and Orhan I was actively nurturing him for the Ottoman throne. Too bad Orhan I died a bit too soon, and his eldest Murad I(ironically Helene's son) took the throne by force. When young Halil tried to claim the throne, his elder brother had him executed.

Anyway, this pretty little tale might be proof that such marriages could take place when there was suffiecient political interest behind them on both sides. It's what a lawyer would call precedent i think. So i would humbly suggest that the whole issue of religious incompbatibility be put to rest. There must be a million other important reasons why a Russian Czar wouldn't marry a Chinese princess.

I can hypothesize of a couple situations where a Russian Czar would find it in his best interest to pursue such a union. To strike an alliance against the Japanese? Or at least secure some sort of peace on the massive land border he shared with China, at a time when his attention was required elsewhere? I really couldn't tell for sure and other people seem to have some ideas on the matter that are interesting.

Of course, the matter of whether either or both parties would rush to acknowledge a male heir produced from this union as a viable claimant to their throne, is a whole different story...

Russian-Manchu union could be pursued for economical interests, as well as political interests. How about a union that would have designs on Mongolia? Certainly the Russo-Manchu union could allow the former to get its access into the Amur River a lot quicker, meaning more chance at a Pacific expedition, leading to Russian colonies in the Pacific.
 
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