WI: A more proactive Japan

@Seigen I'm still waiting on that response from trule. But true enuff.



Not exactly, the final straw for the Ming was the Imjin wars and without it they may last quite a long time; waiting until the 1610s only extends the time frame.

Yeah, and by that time, the Manchus might have already been defeated. Overall, such a timeline could ensure the survival of the Ming
 
I don't know if they would want to reach the New World, but a more proactive Japan could easily colonise Hokkaido and Sakhalin centuries ahead of schedule (and not lose the area to the Russians if/when they show up), and maybe establish control over Taiwan (which if I recall, one of the leaders of 16th century Japan wanted to).

Taiwan? No way.

China led several expeditions there - they all failed. The natives of Taiwan just can't be beaten as easily as that.
 
Taiwan? No way.

China led several expeditions there - they all failed. The natives of Taiwan just can't be beaten as easily as that.
Well I mean, this was a time when having a single fort there can be seen as establishing control over it; no wonder it was called Dutch Formosa and etc.

And I can definitely see the Japanese making a castle or two on Taiwan.
 
Yeah, and by that time, the Manchus might have already been defeated. Overall, such a timeline could ensure the survival of the Ming

For the sake of argument, what happens if we give Japan perfect timing and have it invade Korea during the middle of the Ming-Manchu wars? Could it perhaps even cooperate with the latter?
 
For the sake of argument, what happens if we give Japan perfect timing and have it invade during the middle of the Ming-Manchu Wars? Could it perhaps even cooperate with the latter?

The Ming-Manchu wars only became a serious issue because Ming was so weakened. Note that the Ming was dealing with the Mongols just before the shit hit the fan in Korea.

With no Japanese invasions of Korea, Ming-Manchu conflicts won't be a serious issue.
 
The Ming-Manchu wars only became a serious issue because Ming was so weakened. Note that the Ming was dealing with the Mongols just before the shit hit the fan in Korea.

With no Japanese invasions of Korea, Ming-Manchu conflicts won't be a serious issue.

It sounds like the Ming intervention in the Imjin War was a very bad decision. Their making the opposite decision could in itself make for an interesting TL.
 
It sounds like the Ming intervention in the Imjin War was a very bad decision. Their making the opposite decision could in itself make for an interesting TL.

The opposite would be waiting for the Japanese to reach Liaotung, which was a horrifying prospect for many Chinese generals - in Korea wars can be fought by the thousands, but in the mountainless peninsula of Liaotung armies would have to fight by the hundreds of thousands.
 
The opposite would be waiting for the Japanese to reach Liaotung, which was a horrifying prospect for many Chinese generals - in Korea wars can be fought by the thousands, but in the mountainless peninsula of Liaotung armies would have to fight by the hundreds of thousands.

But couldn't the Ming advantage in manpower be used to greater effect in such a circumstance? Japan's supply lines also get more stretched the farther they go, meaning they have to leave more behind to guard, etc.
 
The opposite would be waiting for the Japanese to reach Liaotung, which was a horrifying prospect for many Chinese generals - in Korea wars can be fought by the thousands, but in the mountainless peninsula of Liaotung armies would have to fight by the hundreds of thousands.

I actually wrote a timeline on this, but I think it might be a tad bit ASB.

Nurhaci offered to help the Joseon out after the Japanese captured one of his forts, after all. So I got the Manchus to join the war instead of the Ming, and they establish a 'Qing' Korea.
 
But couldn't the Ming advantage in manpower be used to greater effect in such a circumstance? Japan's supply lines also get more stretched the farther they go, meaning they have to leave more behind to guard, etc.

If I remember right, Japanese soldiers often just advanced, not leaving much behind them in WWII. Of course, this is different, but maybe that practice had earlier roots?
 
But couldn't the Ming advantage in manpower be used to greater effect in such a circumstance? Japan's supply lines also get more stretched the farther they go, meaning they have to leave more behind to guard, etc.

(Of course, this mean Korea's royally fucked, which is all I really care about these days.)
You'd be right, this most likely means a much better situation than what the Chinese may anticipate - they won't have to deal with the Korean bureaucracy and, with Yi Sun-shin constraining the Japanese fleet to Korea's southern coast, the forward troops are most likely isolated.
But here's the catch - it's entirely possible Toyotomi's plan was to simply capture Korea in the first place, to use it as a bargaining chip for concessions.
 
Taiwan? No way.

China led several expeditions there - they all failed. The natives of Taiwan just can't be beaten as easily as that.

They could just bring in extra settlers from Japan like what China did, and after lots and lots of fighting, marginalise the Taiwanese Aboriginals in the end. If Japan's being more proactive, that means they inevitably have a stronger government and thus more centralisation than they did historically, so they could move people around like this. And if I recall, the Japanese islands were always toward the upper end of their carrying capacity.

That could also be a reason to secure Sakhalin and Hokkaido far ahead of OTL. The Japanese could definitely settle the islands on their own and displace the natives if someone pushed settlement there and encouraged the Japanese to spread out over the 5 islands of the Japanese archipelago. Not to mention, once Japan realises that Russia is establishing interests in the Far East (disregarding butterflies), Japan will likely want to counter that, meaning they'd probably assert control over Kamchatka with forts and such.
 
They could just bring in extra settlers from Japan like what China did, and after lots and lots of fighting, marginalise the Taiwanese Aboriginals in the end. If Japan's being more proactive, that means they inevitably have a stronger government and thus more centralisation than they did historically, so they could move people around like this. And if I recall, the Japanese islands were always toward the upper end of their carrying capacity.

That could also be a reason to secure Sakhalin and Hokkaido far ahead of OTL. The Japanese could definitely settle the islands on their own and displace the natives if someone pushed settlement there and encouraged the Japanese to spread out over the 5 islands of the Japanese archipelago. Not to mention, once Japan realises that Russia is establishing interests in the Far East (disregarding butterflies), Japan will likely want to counter that, meaning they'd probably assert control over Kamchatka with forts and such.

No, you would need a HUGE mass migration like the one that followed the fall of the Ming to Taiwan. Even then, they only took northern Taiwan.
 
No, you would need a HUGE mass migration like the one that followed the fall of the Ming to Taiwan. Even then, they only took northern Taiwan.

Possibly. But even a limited migration would establish a base for future conquests and warfare against the natives.
 
What's to say that it won't be taken by the Chinese, like how the Southern Ming did when they fled to Taiwan?

That's probably true, admittedly. You have the demographics of China with the massive amounts of potential settlers as well as the fact that Taiwan is closer to China than Japan and the fact that no doubt Japanese rule would be unpopular amongst the Taiwanese Aboriginals, who might welcome the Chinese in at first simply to help kick the Japanese out.

But I think in this scenario you'd end up having Japan and China be like the England and France of the Far East, so Japanese rulers would definitely fortify Taiwan as much as they could afford (and possibly more) to protect it from Chinese invasion. A Japanese Taiwan (Takasogo?) might be a long shot, I think, but there's no reason a "more proactive Japan" wouldn't try to make it reality, since Taiwan is right on the doorstep of China and all that and would be strategic in any conflicts with China and not to mention, presumably they've already moved a significant amount of settlers there and all to even be put in this situation.
 
That's probably true, admittedly. You have the demographics of China with the massive amounts of potential settlers as well as the fact that Taiwan is closer to China than Japan and the fact that no doubt Japanese rule would be unpopular amongst the Taiwanese Aboriginals, who might welcome the Chinese in at first simply to help kick the Japanese out.

But I think in this scenario you'd end up having Japan and China be like the England and France of the Far East, so Japanese rulers would definitely fortify Taiwan as much as they could afford (and possibly more) to protect it from Chinese invasion. A Japanese Taiwan (Takasogo?) might be a long shot, I think, but there's no reason a "more proactive Japan" wouldn't try to make it reality, since Taiwan is right on the doorstep of China and all that and would be strategic in any conflicts with China and not to mention, presumably they've already moved a significant amount of settlers there and all to even be put in this situation.

Even up to the late 1800's, the Chinese government was unable to control the Taiwanese aborigines. Seriously, Japan won't be able to control Taiwan until the 1800's.
 
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