WI: A more proactive Japan

Post-Tsushima, the wako pirates become increasingly Chinese. But the Imperial gov't tried to hide that fact. Not to mention some lower officials actually profitted from the wako, I think.

Is it possible youre mixing up Wokou pirates with Ming revivalists, who were around from the 17th century?
 
No, I'm not.

From Wikipedia:
According to the History of Ming, thirty percent of the 16th century wokou were Japanese, seventy percent were ethnic Chinese.[13][14][15][16]

Because of the extent of corruption in the Ming court, many Chinese officials actually had relations with the pirates and benefited from the piracy, making it difficult for central authorities to control.[17]
I'm no expert but 70% sounds like a lot. Furthermore since there is mention of corruption while I find it likely that there were some manipulation of documentation by Chinese officials, this only shows there wasn't some malignant force within the Ming court to "hide that fact".
 
I'm no expert but 70% sounds like a lot. Furthermore since there is mention of corruption while I find it likely that there were some manipulation of documentation by Chinese officials, this only shows there wasn't some malignant force within the Ming court to "hide that fact".

My bad. I was actually referring to the local governments, not the Imperial court itself.

Anyways...

I don't know if they would want to reach the New World, but a more proactive Japan could easily colonise Hokkaido and Sakhalin centuries ahead of schedule (and not lose the area to the Russians if/when they show up), and maybe establish control over Taiwan (which if I recall, one of the leaders of 16th century Japan wanted to).

Yes this is possible.
 
Same issue as to why Korea never colonised Manchuria. The reasons were:
  1. there's zero political will for it
  2. it could turn terribly expensive.
I suspect the same holds for Japan.

Manchuria's a long shot, obviously. I was referring to Sakhalin and Hokkaido.
 
Korea might have reasons not to expand north. That doesn't necessarily mean it's the same case as Japan.

No, but it's also possible to say that the two will have similar reactions to barbarians or colonialism in general because 1. they're right next to each other and share multiple societal and cultural traits and 2. they're both in the Sinosphere, which also tended to be anti-expansionist.
 
what if William Adams known to the Japanese as Muira Anjin, had gotten Tokugawa Ieyasu to convert to Christianity? And with the western ships he was introducing and Japan becoming Christian and thus be more relatable to Europeans? This could mean japan becoming more and more influenced by the west, all it would take is Daiymo taking interest in western things and spending large amounts of money on them for Japan to become similar to Mexico or late China.

There would probably be a civil war because of this but if they become christian they could be backed by the Europeans easier and who knows what goes on from then.
 
No, but it's also possible to say that the two will have similar reactions to barbarians or colonialism in general because 1. they're right next to each other and share multiple societal and cultural traits and 2. they're both in the Sinosphere, which also tended to be anti-expansionist.

Fair enough. But I'm pretty sure the Ainu are far different from the Jurchens.
 
Fair enough. But I'm pretty sure the Ainu are far different from the Jurchens.
Indeed, my guess is that the Ainu were much less belligerent than the Jurchens - which all the more gives reason for why the Japanese would not try forcibly conquer those lands.
 
Indeed, my guess is that the Ainu were much less belligerent than the Jurchens - which all the more gives reason for why the Japanese would not try forcibly conquer those lands.

It could also be misinterpreted as a weakness by the Japanese. But in case war is unlikely, can they just vassalize the Ainu instead and encourage them to expand northwards? There's also the earlier Japanization option.
 
It could also be misinterpreted as a weakness by the Japanese.
Weakness in terms of what though? Not being expansionist isn't a weakness.
But in case war is unlikely, can they just vassalize the Ainu instead and encourage them to expand northwards? There's also the earlier Japanization option.
Earlier vassalisation is definitely possible, but I don't know why they'd be encouraged to move northwards; Japanisation would be a bit harder.
 
Earlier vassalisation is definitely possible, but I don't know why they'd be encouraged to move northwards; Japanisation would be a bit harder.

How about a joint expedition?

Or maybe let's say some Ainu got curious enough, sailed north and landed on Sakhalin by chance. News spreads among other Ainu, and later the Japanese themselves.
 
How about a joint expedition?

Or maybe let's say some Ainu got curious enough, sailed north and landed on Sakhalin by chance. News spreads among other Ainu, and later the Japanese themselves.
  • Why would there be a joint expedition? Why does the Japanese royal court want to spend money this way? Is there a population boom they are worried about?
  • I can definitely see news of Sakhalin spreading, since it's so close. But other than maybe a military garrison I doubt anything else'll be there.
 
  • Why would there be a joint expedition? Why does the Japanese royal court want to spend money this way? Is there a population boom they are worried about?
  • I can definitely see news of Sakhalin spreading, since it's so close. But other than maybe a military garrison I doubt anything else'll be there.

  • Yeah, I know it's impossible. :D
  • Fair enough.

Looks like we're the only ones interested in this. :eek:
 
Hello all! This is my first post in the before 1900 forum, I hope people find it useful. I just ran across this thread and found it interesting. I've only skimmed it, so forgive me if this idea was mentioned before. Could a better-timed Imjin War have the effect the OP is looking for? If Japan waits until the 1610s-30s time frame, when the Ming is in steep decline, would Beijing perhaps decide to write off Korea and let it fall under Japan's control? Japanese interest in the outside world is then stimulated by the easy victory.
 
@Seigen I'm still waiting on that response from trule. But true enuff.

Hello all! This is my first post in the before 1900 forum, I hope people find it useful. I just ran across this thread and found it interesting. I've only skimmed it, so forgive me if this idea was mentioned before. Could a better-timed Imjin War have the effect the OP is looking for? If Japan waits until the 1610s-30s time frame, when the Ming is in steep decline, would Beijing perhaps decide to write off Korea and let it fall under Japan's control? Japanese interest in the outside world is then stimulated by the easy victory.

Not exactly, the final straw for the Ming was the Imjin wars and without it they may last quite a long time; waiting until the 1610s only extends the time frame.
 
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