WI: A different option for Prince Henry of Prussia?

What If, instead of (or perhaps later because of) being appointed as Supreme Commander of the Baltic he was appointed as Supreme Commander of the North Sea?

Just as a matter of interest in September 1914 the fleet that Prince Henry was supreme commander of was:
2 Pre-dreads: Elsass, Braunschweig
1 CA: Blucher
7 CL: Amazone, Augsburg, Lubeck, Madgeburg, Undine, Thetis, Gazelle
14 DD: S126-31, S120-24 & 125, V 25-6

The shore forces were:
1st Seaman Division at Kiel
1st Marine Artillery Division at Friedrichsort
1st Torpedo Division at Kiel
1st Battalion of Marines

This was the only accretion of power within the Imperial German Navy for the vast majority of WW1.
 

Deleted member 94680

What If, instead of (or perhaps later because of) being appointed as Supreme Commander of the Baltic he was appointed as Supreme Commander of the North Sea?

An attempt to unify KM hierarchy by the back door? If he becomes SCNS after SCB then maybe someone ‘loyal’ to him gets the latter command and better unity of effort results?
 
Henry was named Supreme Commander Baltic on 31/7/14.

The idea in my head was that instead he is named as SCNS instead on the same day or at some other command shakeup point like when von Ingenohl was replaced by von Pohl in Feb 1915 after Dogger Bank or when Scheer was appointed in Jan 1916, although the earlier the better. He would relinquish the SCB position, and given the way the KM worked I would suggest he wouldn't be replaced.

The difference between the Baltic and the North Sea was the size of the HSF compared to the BF and that there were 2 positions in the North Sea that a Supreme commander would be responsible for. So when von Schroder asks for resources for the MKF the decision would be out of the hands of the CinCs of the North Sea Station and the HSF wouldn't be able to deny him the resources, that would be up to SCNS weighing up his options and responsibilities.
 
No way that Kaiser will name him as commander of the most important theater of naval warfare (against the RN). For that you need real proffesionals and also someone that will not taint the Imperial Family by having a defeat. Idle royals could play admiral in relative backwater of Baltic.
 
No way that Kaiser will name him as commander of the most important theater of naval warfare (against the RN). For that you need real proffesionals and also someone that will not taint the Imperial Family by having a defeat. Idle royals could play admiral in relative backwater of Baltic.

3 of 8 armies in 1914 were commanded by the crown princes of Prussia and Barvaria and the grand Duke of Wurtemburg. These 3 men commanded army groups in 1918. This is in addition to Henry being one of the 2 grand admirals in the KM and being the only navy supreme commander named during the war.

I'd say that bumping princes to high command positions is pretty much standard for the Kaiser.
 

Deleted member 94680

Idle royals could play admiral in relative backwater of Baltic.

Is that your assessment of Prince Henry or just an assumption?

I was always of the impression that Henry was committed to being a naval officer and pretty good at it too.
 
3 of 8 armies in 1914 were commanded by the crown princes of Prussia and Barvaria and the grand Duke of Wurtemburg. These 3 men commanded army groups in 1918. This is in addition to Henry being one of the 2 grand admirals in the KM and being the only navy supreme commander named during the war.

I'd say that bumping princes to high command positions is pretty much standard for the Kaiser.

Crown Princes were there mostly nominally and were required to listen their CoS. Also, nobody named Crown Prince to be Supreme Commander, on West or East. Hindemburg and Falkenhayn were Supreme Commanders. That's the opposite number position for Commander of North Sea. Being an army commander is something like being a head of cruiser squadron or even a cruiser force or something similar.
 
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Crown Princes were there mostly nominally and were required to listen their CoS. Also, nobody named Crown Prince to be Supreme Commander, on West or East. Hindemburg and Falkenhayn were Supreme Commanders. That's the opposite number position for Commander of North Sea. Being an army commander is something like being a head of cruiser squadron or even a cruiser force or something similar.

In terms of the KM the Kaiser was akin to the head of OHL and the different sections of the KM; 1. The Naval Cabinet 2. The Admiralty Staff 3. The Imperial Naval Administration 4. The Inspector-General of the Navy 5. The Baltic Naval Station 6. The North Sea Naval Station 7. The High Seas Fleet 8. The Overseas Squadrons were akin to the 8 Armies that reported to OHL. Each of these sections were headed by men of similar rank, and all had the right of direct access to the Kaiser and when the MarineKorps Flandern was formed in late 1914 it was given the same right of direct access to the Kaiser as the North Sea and Baltic stations, the fleets etc.

In September 1914 the Germans formed the 9th Army in the East and in order to command this and the extant 8th Army OHL and the Kaiser created Ober Ost, Supreme Commander in the East. This is akin to what happened with Prince Henry in the Baltic; the Naval station with its coastal defences, local patrol forces and the separate Baltic Fleet were placed under a single commander.

In the west OHL (which was physically located at Spa in Belgium) also began consolidating command of Field Armies into Herresgruppes, the first being Army Group German Crown Prince on 1 August 1915.

The mental hurdle of consolidating command had already been crossed by both the Army and the Navy by late 1914, indeed giving Supreme Command in the east had become standard. Similarly consolidating command under a Prussian Prince was done in the west by August 1915 with the creation of Army Group German Crown Prince. So I don't think taking Henry from the Baltic and giving him similar command responsibility over the 2 naval stations and the HSF in the North Sea is such a great stretch of the imagination, particularly given the Kaiser's temperament. This would still leave the Kaiser in direct control of 5 or 6 other sections of the Navy.
 
I know most about the MarineKorps Flandern, so here's a sample of the requests and arguments that went on to establish this new station that was right on the front line. A Supreme Commander North Sea would makes some of these decisions, depending on when he was appointed, and advise from a position of authority on others.
  • Von Schroders first request for reinforcement of the marine Division was made 12 Sept, the decision within the KM to reinforce made 20 Oct, this proposal was put to the Kaiser on 3 Nov and the Kaiser made his decision on 6 Nov.
  • A request for 16 x 150mm, 16 x 105mm and 16 x 88mm for the MKF was made on 20 Oct, this was resisted by the Baltic and North Sea station commanders so to not reduce their own defences.
  • Chief AdmStaff sent a letter to CO HSF for 1/2 flotilla of TBs and Uboats for MKF 18 Nov, CO HSF rejected TBs and accepted the deployment of uboats but they were to remain under HSF command.
  • CO MKF v. Schroder requested two very old Siegfried coast defence 'battleships' 30 Jan 15, it was rejected despite these ships being withdrawn from active service from 1915.
  • Despite regular requests for extra forces, in particular modern destroyers and light cruisers, and ostensible support from the RMA and Admiralty Staff (Von Pohl), Von Ingenohl refused to release any forces from the HSF. He wrote a detailed letter on 23 December to v. Schroder laying out his reasons including the need to defend the Heligoland Bight, the risk to ships of being so close to the enemy and the lack of adequate defences until the coast was fortified. Left unsaid was an unwillingness to diminish his command.
  • Von Pohl been supportive of MKF requests for more forces when with the Admiralty Staff, but once in command of the HSF from 4 Feb 15 immediately conformed to v. Ingeohl's reluctance to release resources to the MKF, citing the same reasons and quietly harbouring the same motivation to not diminish his command.
  • Von Tirpitz of RMA responded positively on 22 Jan to v. Schroders request by promising a flotilla of 24 coastal submarines and 20 coastal torpedoboats that were soon to be completed in Germany. These arrived in April/May 1915, but were very limited compared to regular Torpedoboats and Uboats.
  • Schroder was continually advised from October 1915 that he would be receiving a half-flotilla of large, modern Torpedoboats, they didn't arrive until Feb 1916.
  • June 1916 MKF was offered destroyers from the Baltic when winter arrived, but Schroder said that was too far away.
  • II flotilla, 10 full-sized modern destroyers, went to Flanders in July 1916.
 

trajen777

Banned
I have thought about a TL with Henry replacing our fav Kaiser? From what i have read on him (minimal ) he came across as a dedicated and realistic commander and well liked.

I have this from Wiki (so perhaps you can have him stay as CC HSF) : From 1906 to 1909, Henry was commander of the High Seas Fleet. In 1909, he was promoted to Grand Admiral:

On performance : Although the means provided him were far inferior to Russia’s Baltic Fleet, he succeeded, until the 1917 Revolution, in putting Russia’s naval forces far on the defensive, and hindered them from making attacks on the German coast.

ON his ability and views ::

Unlike the popular belief the kaiser and the prince where both truly popular in Germany, and on account of his humble and open manner was beloved by those under his command. On foreign travels, he was a good diplomat, who, unlike his brother, was able to strike the right tone. Thus, on his 1902 trip to the United States, Henry made a favorable impression with the critical American press and succeeded in winning the sympathy of more than just the numerous German-American segment of the population.

As a naval officer, Henry had a profession that completely satisfied him and that he loved. He was thoroughly a pragmatist. He received one of the first pilot’s licenses in Germany, and was judged a spirited and excellent seaman.


So i think some of the mixed performances and massive conservationism of the various leaders of the HSF would have been butterflied. So the Germans (they had several chances) needed to send a raid out to shell the GB coast, catch a portion of the GB fleet out at sea, defeat it with a larger portion of the HSF and even the odds up.
 
To provide some clarity, I will suggest that Henry is made SCNS at the same time as von Ingenohl was replaced by von Pohl on 4 Feb 1915 after Dogger Bank, SCB is left vacant. This is between when Ober Ost was created in November 1914 and Heeresgruppe Mackensen on 22 April 15, so isn't out of line with German consolidation of commands in the period.

At the very least with a command level between the co-equal station and fleet commanders and the Kaiser request for resources from the HSF and NthS NS by the MKF will go to Henry, who will decide if the objections of the HSF and NthS NS are valid without the concern that his command will be reduced.

As for what decisions he would make in his position, that is tougher. In the Baltic he was quite aggressive, so given that large number of destroyers and light cruisers doing little to nothing in the HSF for much of the time he might find some light forces for the MKF, even if only on short term loans. He might also use the HSF a bit more, maybe not attempts at battle with the RN but for the likes of the minelaying operation between Hull and Holland in September 1915 or the sweep into the Skagerrak to search merchant shipping in December 1915.
 
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