WI: A different Battle of the Caudine Forks

It's just an idea for a Samnite TL. Is it plausible for the Samnites to kill all the Romans and end up winning the Second war? And also, all other propositions, ideas and advices are welcome, so if anyone is interested, please comment! ;)
 
It's just an idea for a Samnite TL. Is it plausible for the Samnites to kill all the Romans and end up winning the Second war? And also, all other propositions, ideas and advices are welcome, so if anyone is interested, please comment! ;)


Theoretically possible, and I would love to see a Samnite TL, which I don't think there has ever been before on this site. The problem is that the Romans still have a big population (and therefore manpower) advantage on the Romans. I feel like the Romans would have to be forced to make peace by some other circumstance. Possibly political turmoil at home, but most likely something like a Gallic invasion that sacks Rome again. The much-reduced Roman city state would then be a sitting duck for the Samnites.
 
A gallic sack of Rome after the Servian Walls are completed isn't really plausible. It's not that hard for the Samnites to win the second samnite war I suppose, but it is extremely difficult to have them not lose to Rome eventually.

A better POD would be to have a successful Latin revolt in 340.
 
Well, they don't have to win right away. If the war kept going, could the Samnites win the Second war eventually? They needn't destroy Rome itself, just defeat a few more times, maybe take Campania etc. Rome would survive. But with a shorter war chances are better for the Samnites to win, considering the Romans had more manpower and if the war kept going they would eventually simply outnumber them. Then, after they take Campania, a decade or two of peace and a Third war that ends with Rome defeated, maybe some of the Latins turning on them, some Etruscans joining also and help from Taranto (IIRC they were friends with Samnium). And finally, they starve out Rome, or break through the Servian Walls and kill their enemies. This is just a rough sketch for the beginning. Is it plausible? And would anyone read a TL like that?
And also, does anyone have more information on them? What about their religion? I understand they had manipular organization before the Romans, so were they more advanced in some aspects? ow good was their military? And their language was Oscan, similar to Latin. I read they called themselves Safineis or something like that (correct me if I'm wrong)? And their administration? Information I found is scarce. Oh and what was their capital? I need a good replacement for Rome :D
 
Well, they don't have to win right away. If the war kept going, could the Samnites win the Second war eventually? They needn't destroy Rome itself, just defeat a few more times, maybe take Campania etc. Rome would survive. But with a shorter war chances are better for the Samnites to win, considering the Romans had more manpower and if the war kept going they would eventually simply outnumber them. Then, after they take Campania, a decade or two of peace and a Third war that ends with Rome defeated, maybe some of the Latins turning on them, some Etruscans joining also and help from Taranto (IIRC they were friends with Samnium). And finally, they starve out Rome, or break through the Servian Walls and kill their enemies. This is just a rough sketch for the beginning. Is it plausible? And would anyone read a TL like that?
And also, does anyone have more information on them? What about their religion? I understand they had manipular organization before the Romans, so were they more advanced in some aspects? ow good was their military? And their language was Oscan, similar to Latin. I read they called themselves Safineis or something like that (correct me if I'm wrong)? And their administration? Information I found is scarce. Oh and what was their capital? I need a good replacement for Rome :D
Like I said, winning the second war is easy. It's winning the series of wars overall that is the hard part. After the Latin Revolt of 340 failed spectacularly, getting the latins to revolt is going to be almost impossible. With a POD at Caudine Forks, it's still extremely difficult, while not impossible, to have the Romans grudgingly acknowledge the existence of the Samnites. Samnite destruction at Rome at this point is more or less impossible.

So like I said, if you push the POD back the Latin Revolt of 340, you can deal Rome a serious setback. That is, imo, the latest point before Pyrrhus or Hannibal that you realistically have the best chance of arresting Rome's rise.
 
And also, does anyone have more information on them? What about their religion? I understand they had manipular organization before the Romans, so were they more advanced in some aspects? ow good was their military? And their language was Oscan, similar to Latin. I read they called themselves Safineis or something like that (correct me if I'm wrong)? And their administration? Information I found is scarce. Oh and what was their capital? I need a good replacement for Rome :D
My father is from Molise, in Italy (Molise and Abruzzo roughly make up what was once Samnium), so when I went to Italy a few years ago, I got to see a small Samnite museum in his hometown. The town, Aesernia (as it was known then, now Isernia), was IIRC, the capital of the Penti samnite tribe (and briefly the capital of the Italian revolt in the social war after Corfinium fell). So that's one of the major cities of the Samnites at least.

As for other stuff, the guy at the museum was telling me a little bit about their political administration. As far as I can tell, the Samnite Meddix, while sort of equivalent to the Roman consul, was more of a war leader than anything else (which, I guess at this time consuls campaigned constantly more than anything else, so the comparison is probably very apt for the period). I imagine if you have some Samnite tribe come to dominate a confederation, you can have the Meddix become the equivalent to a consul in full, assuming both the administrative and military duties that a Roman consul would.
 
But I also read about several other cities that could be important. Bojano (Bovianum in Latin) was a capital of the Pentri tribe and a capital in the Social War, but it's location is problematic. But Benevento (Maleventum) and Montesarchio (Caudium) could do the job. Both were important Samnite cities, both had good locations. Maybe Caudium is even better since it was used by the Samnites to watch Campania and was relatively close to Capua. In case they do win and take over Campania somehow it would be smart to set up the capital city there, once the Samnite confederation has been united under a single leadership. It has potential to become a trade center, the harbor of Capua is not far away and it with fortifications they can make it a hard place to conquer. If they don't defeat Rome immediatly, they would be in a good place to fight them at least.
And does anyone know some details about their religion? It is quite important if one is making a plan for an expansionist empire.
 
But I also read about several other cities that could be important. Bojano (Bovianum in Latin) was a capital of the Pentri tribe and a capital in the Social War, but it's location is problematic. But Benevento (Maleventum) and Montesarchio (Caudium) could do the job. Both were important Samnite cities, both had good locations. Maybe Caudium is even better since it was used by the Samnites to watch Campania and was relatively close to Capua. In case they do win and take over Campania somehow it would be smart to set up the capital city there, once the Samnite confederation has been united under a single leadership. It has potential to become a trade center, the harbor of Capua is not far away and it with fortifications they can make it a hard place to conquer. If they don't defeat Rome immediatly, they would be in a good place to fight them at least.
And does anyone know some details about their religion? It is quite important if one is making a plan for an expansionist empire.
I presume the capital itself is going to predicated on which tribe comes to dominate the confederation, similar to how Rome became the de facto capital of Latium. So, perhaps in a scenario following a Samnite conquest of Campania, over a period of time have an Oscan tribe centered around Capeva (well, that's the Etruscan name for Capua, not sure what the Oscan name is) come to dominate the league. I agree, Capua is the best location for a Samnite state to be centered around.
 
So, is Capua better than Caudium?

I personally feel like it's a bit forced, and that it would be more interesting if the capital wasn't a major city that was bigger than Rome. Capua wouldn't be majority Oscan without pretty much scattering the original inhabitants, which I think would be hard to economically justify.
 
That's what I thought. Caudium as the capital and Capua as a harbor, maybe in a way similar to Ostia. Though Capua will probably have a larger population than Caudium for some time
 
Top